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... ..Reply.. Forum 565 Lou 2022-12-02 15:11:19

re: post-562 A good article, thank you for bringing it to my attention. We are the ones taking ourselves on those awful rides he describes God isn't to blame. 
God, the only reality, is serving us the crop that we have been sowing. That is called Karma. 
Listening to Robin Wall Kimmer would help but only if put into practice. But what can an individual do? That everyone asks that question is the reason it's so hard to get out of the mess we're in.

... ..Reply.. Forum 564 Chad 2022-12-02 15:04:44

Re: post-563 I'm not surprised and I fully expected that would be in accord with the Vedanta. There are a number of voices that are knowingly and many unknowingly in accord with the Vedanta. I don't think it should come as too much of a surprise that goodness and spiritual wisdom should follow similar paths. I feel that these other voices are important to listen to, especially those that have been silenced and oppressed for so long. It is so easy to brush them aside as unimportant or even trivial without any recognition of who they are and what they can tell us. These oppressed voices are fully aware of the situation. They have been told repeatedly by the dominant culture that they are unimportant even invisable. The dominant culture, of course, has preferred and superior ways of perceiving things.

... ..Reply.. Forum 563 Lou 2022-12-02 14:26:32

re: post-561 That's all in accord with the teaching of Vedanta which is where I spend my listening time.

... ..Reply.. Forum 562 Chad 2022-12-02 13:52:04

I found this on the Anglican Church of Canada website. https://thehighway.anglicannews.ca/what-are-we-waiting-for/?mc_cid=2738da55ca&mc_eid=2cfe43529a

As we know Christ, he was actively engaged in the World as much as he was in the church (Synagog). Our brain, spirit, body, empathy compassion, and love should not be parked at the door either coming or going.

... ..Reply.. Forum 561 Chad 2022-12-02 11:08:26

re: post-560 You asked what I had appreciated about Robin Wall Kimmer.

  • Her balance of emotion, spirit, mind, and body
  • Her attention and devotion to detail (the small important things that are mostly missed by others)
  • Her love and holistic approach to nature
  • Her appreciation of the importance of myths and stories
  • Her philosophies of interconnectedness, reciprocity, generosity, and gratitude
  • Her willingness to teach and be taught through various channels of knowledge and inspiration
  • Her ability to function fluently in her indigenous and modern western society
  • Her ability to appreciate and excel in science and her indigenous teachings
  • Her accomplished ability to listen, learn, teach, concentrate, communicate, advocate, and her capacity to love others.

... ..Reply.. Forum 560 Chad 2022-12-01 18:02:35

re: post-559  That's unfortunate. I guess I may be more in tune with the natural environment. I enjoy hiking in different environments. I'm an amateur naturalist at heart. I was somewhat familiar with her content with my own observations. I will have more to say later.

... ..Reply.. Forum 559 Lou 2022-12-01 15:54:56

re: post-558 I am all for the holistic approach. I did buy the Braiding Sweet Grass ebook but lost interest a quarter of the way into it. 

I look forward to your write-up on what you get from that youtube talk.

... ..Reply.. Forum 558 Chad 2022-12-01 11:24:53

re: post-557 The Youtube talk with Robin Wall Kimmer is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDQ5WDLQb9M

It is over an hour long so I might listen to it in 15-minute segments to make it more bite-sized. I think you will appreciate it. I would like to see your comments.

... ..Reply.. Forum 557 Chad 2022-11-30 13:39:59

I'm listening to a talk by Robin Wall Kimmer on Youtube. She is a Ph.D. professor teaching Botany at SUNY. Her specialty is Mosses. She is a member of the Bear & Eagle clan. She is an advocate for a holistic approach toward the natural world. She is open to learning from our vast world of knowledge. She tries to stay in tune with the spiritual world, especially through her first nation's stories and language. She believes that we are made up of four essential components mind, body, spirit, and emotion. She says when the ladder is out of balance it's like trying to walk on one leg. She believes in the spirit of reciprocity not only with other people but also with all beings of an organic or inorganic nature. She says these four major aspects of our being were balanced until the enlightenment. Before that, we were people of stories that glued our being and our societies together. Since then, we have become increasingly divided and separated from our natural state. These Silos that we have created have led to dysfunction and animosity in many ways.

I got to know her through her book, Braiding Sweet Grass. I then read her first book Gathering Mosses. I like her worldview. To me, it is something to sincerely consider and pursue.

... ..Reply.. Forum 556 Chad 2022-11-28 20:34:02


... ..Reply.. Forum 555 Chad 2022-11-28 12:23:37

re: post-554 Pat said that only one religion could be right. It happens to be the one he worships. He won't accept any other position. I understand his point of view. If I'm right and you must be wrong, doesn't work out well in real life. Let's admit we perceive things differently. Let's talk about where we agree and where we differ. The idea is to understand and learn something. The other person may have a different position, culture, and or religion. We should not demand that they must see things our way. That also goes with ancient writing as well. We don't have the writer to question. We only have what they have written. The Bible uses stylish Biblical rhetoric for the most part.  We can ponder and interpret it. We can not significantly edit what is written. We will be challenged and even chastised if we don't see eye to eye with others. Especially those that take a more literal view. If I even hinted about this a few hundred years ago I would have been severely punished. Even though my intentions were totally sincere and non-threatening.  

... ..Reply.. Forum 554 Lou 2022-11-28 10:13:00

re: post-553 I agree with what you wrote. I wonder why Gary and Pat find it necessary to believe in and force everyone else to believe in the tentative description of the Truth that the ancient writers came up with instead of open-mindedly questioning what they read in order to understand what it meant to the writers and what it is meant to mean to them at the moment and allow other the same privilege. The Hebrews needed a different story than the Jews of Jesus' time and he provided it now we need to interpret it in the light of the experience gained in the years since. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 553 Chad 2022-11-27 12:34:43

re: post-552 Critical questioning is not meant to necessarily destroy or even alter perceptions and beliefs. It is meant to clarify and reinterpret ideas and beliefs that have been accepted without scrutiny. I think one has to be careful when considering Biblical narratives for example. The writers quite often applied polysemous meanings to their writing. What is on the page can lead us astray taken at face value. There is something hidden in plain view. It always takes some additional consideration to grab its significance. The people of the Bible lived in totally different societies from our own. If we don't allow their perceptions of the universe to prevail in reading the text we come into conflict with our own societal beliefs. A certain esthetic distance and suspension of belief are in order to allow the narrative to flow. We have gone through enlightenment. We have many more ways of perceiving things. However, there is valuable wisdom and a spiritual attitude to be gleaned from the work. Even though we are modern we still share a common humanity with the ancients. The sacred is through and beyond the words, not the actual words themselves.

... ..Reply.. Forum 552 Chad 2022-11-26 19:43:33

re: post-551 I challenged Pat a bit on this Feynman post. I thought he might make some exemptions when it Came to Christian dogma. He said no there were no exceptions. I'm paraphrasing if you check out his Facebook posts you will see our banter. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 551 Chad 2022-11-25 14:19:51

re: post-550 

"An artist has got to be careful never really to arrive at a place where he thinks he’s 'at' somewhere. You always have to realize that you’re constantly in the state of becoming, you know? And, as long as you can stay in that realm, you’ll sort of be all right."

I think this quote from Bob Dylan can easily apply to our learning and our spirituality.

... ..Reply.. Forum 550 Chad 2022-11-25 12:54:54

re: post-549 Gary wants to feel vindicated. I told him that I can't endorse all the things he believes. On the other hand, I don't expect him to endorse any of my ideas. Certainty and self-justification have their limitations. It probably is not apparent to the one who is certain and or self-justified. It makes more sense that there is an open exchange of ideas. How do you perceive the universe? This is how I perceive the Universe kind of dialog. It's great when we agree and even better when we don't. That's a point when we can learn something new or realize a different way of perceiving things. We might try to persuade a person to our point of view if we feel there is a good reason to do so, However, we should be open to hearing other people's opinions even if they are very different from our own. It is very difficult or even impossible to change someone else's strongly felt beliefs even when we feel they are on very shaky ground. We get our backup when people demand that we see things from their perspective. We shouldn't be surprised to see them react if we demand that they perceive things from our perspective. Communicating ideas is difficult. That is why stories are a good way to convey ideas. Stories get through to us where rhetorical arguments fail That is probably why Jesus used parables.

... ..Reply.. Forum 549 Chad 2022-11-24 19:55:39

re: post-548 I like that straightforward approach. Use what works and put aside those things that don't.

... ..Reply.. Forum 548 Lou 2022-11-24 15:40:47

re: post-547. Politic and sport also have their cherry-picking allowed fanatics. I think that Christianity would not have developed without it; do you know of any Gnostic congregation? But then Hinduism and Buddhism are alive and well despite allowing no less than six different philosophies (Many Indian restaurants have a picture of the Sacred Heart next to the one of Siva). 
The way I see it is that scripture and religion are resources to help us on the way back to God and we should use what helps us and ignore what doesn't apply to us as long as it's not an excuse to get away with doing something bad.
What I do is try my best to live by the Lord's command to love God with my whole being and to love my neighbor as myself and use the church rituals and sermons to help me with that.

... ..Reply.. Forum 547 Chad 2022-11-24 11:23:52

re: post-546  Although I love him dearly, he also said I couldn't cherry-pick. He said I had to accept it all or nothing. As you know that isn't me and from what I know of you, it isn't you either. On the other hand, anything that man has had a hand in is imperfect. I think we need to recognize the flaws as well as the strengths of myths, dogma, and traditions. We also need to consider how they are interpreted. finding a way to seriously and sincerely address the flaws, mistakes, and contentious issues is the way to progress our faith.   I go on guard when people tell me I have to accept things without any questions or clarifications.

... ..Reply.. Forum 546 Lou 2022-11-24 08:23:20

re: post-545 I was also surprised since he prefers scripture that cannot be questioned and accuses people who prefer scripture that can be questioned of arrogance.

... ..Reply.. Forum 545 Chad 2022-11-23 23:14:05

re: post-544 Some religious people feel that honoring basic human rights is optional according to their dogma and traditions. Some feel they have God's blessing for deriding others even though they are protected under human rights legislation. Feynman said he preferred unanswerable questions to answers that can't be questioned. I'm surprised that Pat posted it on Facebook. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 544 Lou 2022-11-23 18:53:31

Chad, If Gary wants to tell us something he should do it on the website so we should not reply to his latest email, I won't.

... ..Reply.. Forum 543 Lou 2022-11-23 09:02:21

re: post-539 Mark 12:17 Then Jesus said to them, “Give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s.” Humanism for how we treat each other and religion to help with our spiritual life. 
Christianity and Islam have problems with Humanism and science but the Eastern religions do not. They also force their beliefs on others while the Eastern religions do not. That doesn't mean that Christians and Muslims should abandon their religion but follow it and let others follow theirs.

... ..Reply.. Forum 542 Chad 2022-11-23 08:58:49

re: post-541 I think we may agree more than you suggest. I may have not expressed my idea that well. I'll work on it. I'll just add that we have to be somewhat flexible in order to challenge and change our views. Nothing is carved in stone. At any rate, let me have another go at this. I am off to Keswick shortly. I'll respond when I get back. 


... ..Reply.. Forum 541 Lou 2022-11-23 08:43:24

re: post-540 To be boundaryless is far from being ideal it's rather a recipe for disaster. Lack of boundaries or ignoring boundaries leads to overcrowding and crime. But authorities must not punish but rather encourage the probing of boundaries. 
That also applies to isms. I do think that we agree.

... ..Reply.. Forum 540 Chad 2022-11-22 17:45:06

re: post-539 My thoughts are going toward a boundaryless ideal. Resisting isms in totality but at the same time being aware of their positive aspects. That isn't completely boundless but that allows for overlap and inclusion. I think we more or less think this way anyway.  

... ..Reply.. Forum 539 Chad 2022-11-22 11:08:39

Re: post-538  What do you think of humanism? What bothers me a little is that some emphasize secularism and atheism which I don't think is necessary. To exist in opposition to something else seems reactionary rather than a positive progressive movement. Other than that I think I support most of its tenants.  https://www.humanistcanada.ca/about/humanism/

... ..Reply.. Forum 538 Chad 2022-11-22 10:46:08

re: post-537 It is interesting that some Christians do not believe in the UN charter of human rights or any charter of human rights. They feel their religious dogma is somewhat superior to any arbitrary set of rights designed to recognize and support all of humanity. I personally feel Christ would praise the UN charter.

... ..Reply.. Forum 537 Chad 2022-11-21 15:52:05

re: post-536 That is true Lou. However, they give us alternative scenarios to consider that address death. Those alternatives give us the idea that death does not exist as an end-all termination. These narratives ease the thought of death helping us buffer that ultimate uncertainty. I'm not denying their truth. I'm just stating the psychological effect that they have on us. They are ancient narratives that exclude many other possible narratives. Gary would have trouble with this line of thinking. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 536 Lou 2022-11-21 14:09:47

re: post-534 Vedanta, Buddhism, and Christianity tell us that we should not fear death.

... ..Reply.. Forum 535 Lou 2022-11-21 14:06:24

re: post-533 He did say "chow" to let us know that he is "out to lunch", didn't he?

... ..Reply.. Forum 534 Chad 2022-11-21 13:40:01

re: post-531 I'm just following up on my own post. When we look at basic tombstone data we usually see 2 dates birth date and date of death. There are an infinite number of narratives we can stick between the two dates and even beyond those dates. We will fixate on a few narratives resist others and let the rest fade out of existence.

... ..Reply.. Forum 533 Chad 2022-11-21 10:40:54

re: post-532 That is unfortunate. I wanted to discuss how and why various myths (narratives, stories) get added to the one I posted in 531. I was surprised that Gary signalled out 519.  Reality is not all black men are innocent, the same could be said for white males but look at crime statistics in Toronto? Thats reality. 

I didn't clarify what Gary was attempting to say. Maybe we should have used another example other than the homicidal white cop. We could have used so many other examples to depict racist behavior. Gary does not like Whites and or Christians to be signaled out in a negative way. I'm tentatively guessing that is what his post was implying. Unfortunately, I missed the opportunity to clarify his point of view. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 532 gary 2022-11-20 21:27:09

re: post-519 I'm going to drop out of the Forum, you guys have my gmail.  Maybe coffee one of these days. You missed a good sermon today at Christ Church on a ministry to help migrant workers who come here to work on farms in the summer.   chow

... ..Reply.. Forum 531 Chad 2022-11-20 10:14:26

re: post-530 I like Khalil Gibran's poetical metaphor for the fear of dying. It kind of echoes my thoughts about my position in any part of the universe I was never ever apart from the universe. Incredibly I was assembled for a brief time from the universe and I am somewhat conscious of that fact. Of course, like everyone else, I will dissolve back into my usual form. That is how it goes there is no reason to fear it. There is nothing to anticipate or worry about. Every atom in my body is different from a decade ago. I do not miss or am I even aware of that previous substance that previously deceased me. That is beautifully spiritual to me. It puts everything into perspective. I feel this idea of eternity, although true, can be misleading and even troublesome. To those that fear death. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 530 Lou 2022-11-20 08:35:14

re: post-528 If any reference to Reality were dropped I would have no problem with what you're saying.

Our senses and minds can never grasp reality in its totality. Chad

I agree with that.

... ..Reply.. Forum 529 Lou 2022-11-20 08:24:59

That sounds a lot like Vedanta.


... ..Reply.. Forum 528 Chad 2022-11-19 20:43:27

re: post-527 I was quoting you. I should have said our reality is based on our perceptions. Our senses and minds can never grasp reality in its totality. What we are able to process most quickly are the things that have allowed us to survive and that allow our species to continue.  The rest is not essential.  

... ..Reply.. Forum 527 Lou 2022-11-19 17:48:05

re: post-525 Reality is what is; It is not what we take to be true.
I think the flat earth at the center of the universe is a good example of how we struggle with it.
Our view of what is real is what leads us into trouble when we don't pause to get all the facts before acting. 

Your sentences two and three contradict each other. I agree with everything you are saying except when you say that "Reality is what we take to be true".

... ..Reply.. Forum 526 Chad 2022-11-19 16:28:34

re: post-525 Sorry, Lou, my mistake, I left the computer and when I came back I didn't remember that I had already made the last post so I posted again, that is what caused a double post.

... ..Reply.. Forum 525 Chad 2022-11-19 16:20:41

re: post-520 Exactly right, Lou. Reality is what we take to be true. I think there is a tendency to assume that what we personally take to be true is the true reality. Of course, others will have a different take, sometimes very different from our own. There will always be friction based on our various differing views. Thank God we sometimes agree. However just because we agree does not mean we have a better point of view, it means we find a certain point of view agreeable to what we believe. All sorts of odd consequences come out of this. The one you mentioned is just one of many. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 524 Chad 2022-11-19 15:16:36

re: post-520 Exactly right, Lou. Reality is what we take to be true. I think there is a tendency to assume that what we personally take to be true is the true reality. Of course, others will have a different take, sometimes very different from our own. There will always be friction based on our various differing views. Thank God we sometimes agree. However just because we agree does not mean we have a better point of view, it means we find a certain point of view agreeable to what we believe. All sorts of odd consequences come out of this. The one you mentioned is just one of many. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 523 Chad 2022-11-19 14:22:46

re: post-521 Yes Lou, our view of the Universe is uniquely ours. However, as you suggested that view can be modified by addressing our improper assumptions, ignorance, and misconceptions. That is why we should share our perceptions and challenge and or clarify those that we do not understand or maybe do not understand fully. I wonder how I would address a homicidal white cop. I suppose the only way to find a rapport would be to find a common ground we might share.

... ..Reply.. Forum 522 Chad 2022-11-19 12:25:39

re: post-519 Gary, our reality is that everyone is innocent until proven guilty in a legitimate court that is concerned with justice. Therefore we should assume that everyone is innocent at face value. Statistics are a very abstract version of reality that eliminate all the circumstances of each incident. In an ideal situation, all people are treated equally regardless of their particular background or race. I'm sure you could agree with that.

... ..Reply.. Forum 521 Lou 2022-11-19 12:20:26

re: post-518 The fact that we think that our universe is uniquely ours is the problem.
Our view of the universe is, indeed,  uniquely ours but we have to be constantly on the lookout for ways of correcting our ignorance.
Scientists and theologians do it all the time so should we all.

... ..Reply.. Forum 520 Lou 2022-11-19 12:11:28

re: post-519 What I am saying is that "Reality is what we take to be true,”  leads to workers 'knowing' that European workers take away British worker's jobs leading to Brexit which ended up with jobs being left unfilled and the same happened in the US and in Canada.

You guys addressed the results that this wrong view causes not the view itself. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 519 gary 2022-11-19 11:27:45

re: post-517 Reality is not all black men are innocent, the same could be said for white males but look at crime statistics in Toronto? Thats reality.

... ..Reply.. Forum 518 Chad 2022-11-19 11:24:54

re: post-517 The racist homicidal cop has different perspectives or beliefs on how the universe operates. We may share a number of his perspectives. However, our universe is uniquely ours even though we may share some beliefs with others. Our forum members would not see an innocent black man as a threat.

... ..Reply.. Forum 517 Lou 2022-11-19 07:26:25

re: post-516 Worse than that is the white cop making it his reality that the innocent black man is a criminal and so shooting him is justified.

... ..Reply.. Forum 516 Lou 2022-11-19 06:44:13

re: post-514 If reality is what we take to be true then the reality is that the Earth is flat and the sun and planets orbit around it because that is what we see with our own eyes.

... ..Reply.. Forum 515 Chad 2022-11-18 22:52:59

re: post-514 I agree Lou. We should have the courage to think for ourselves, follow our own path, and seek our own truth. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 514 Lou 2022-11-18 17:32:12

re: post-513 What I find to be problematic is when people describe reality or God (as in "Reality is what we take to be true,” ), especially when everyone else has to agree with them. All cultures and all religions, every individual, must be allowed their own view of things. Of course, David Bohm is allowed to state his opinion.

... ..Reply.. Forum 513 Chad 2022-11-18 16:17:50

re: post-512 I agree we are cross-purposes that are only minimally related. Advaita Vedanta and the Perennial Philosophy are not universally known or understood and therefore there are huge gaps in how they are perceived and the beliefs that stem from them. You're right they are not the point. However, I think there is a lot to be learned about how we perceive things. We might be alright if we treated the 2 areas of inquiry separately. BTW David Bohm is only one of the many people interested in how we perceive things. It is a fairly broad topic.

... ..Reply.. Forum 512 Lou 2022-11-18 13:49:11

re: post-511  Advaita Vedanta is the Perennial Philosophy and believing it or having faith in it is not the point, it has to be experienced which is what scriptures and religions are supposed to help us with. I do agree with what you are saying in your post 507, David Bohm is defining reality and that is what I don't agree with.
We should drop it since we don't seem to be talking about the same thing. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 511 Chad 2022-11-18 13:26:41

re: post-510 I feel that we should leave it open-ended. David Bohm's statement was not put out there to contradict the Advaita Vedanta or the Perennial Philosophy. It was a brief explanation of how we become attached and believe such ideas as the Advaita Vedanta or the Perennial Philosophy. I doubt Gary would ever buy into the ideas of either the Advaita Vedanta or the Perennial Philosophy. He can disagree with me if I have overstepped my assumptions. BTW I didn't mean to put words in your mouth about your take on Christianity. My concern is not with how we see or should perceive the spiritual realm perse but rather with how we perceive and believe anything at all. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 510 Lou 2022-11-18 09:20:29

re: post-508 My use of the words "downfall and salvation" made you see what I wrote as being from a Christian point of view. The Christian point of view would be closer to his than to mine.
David Bohm's statement is contrary to Advaita Vedanta and the best example of ignorance as described in the Perennial Philosophy. God is the only reality and we are to use scripture, all scriptures including science and philosophy, to realize our ignorance; it's not a matter of belief. It's not even a matter of faith.  
What you are saying in your post 507 is correct but it needs to be transcended in order to reach the Truth that only God exists.

... ..Reply.. Forum 509 Chad 2022-11-18 08:44:18

re: post-507 We have the allusion that our reality actually is real. Really it is the best guess based on our predictions our senses, previous learning, and previous perceptions. It is a complex process with other important factors I haven't mentioned, such as what our gut and body are telling us. It feels seamless and instantaneous but that is an illusion. So our reality is what we believe it to be. That is why we have different perspectives and beliefs even though our brains are similarly constructed.    

... ..Reply.. Forum 508 Chad 2022-11-17 20:10:13

re: post-507 I get what you are saying, Lou. From a Christian point of view that makes total sense. There are only 2 choices either Heaven and salvation or Hell and damnation. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 507 Lou 2022-11-17 18:35:38

re: post-502 Reality is not "what we take to be true" reality is and how we take it causes our downfall or our salvation.

... ..Reply.. Forum 506 Chad 2022-11-17 18:15:16

re: post-505 The protagonist's name was John. He was given the nic name johnny Apple Seed by others as a joke. At any rate, the two Johnny Apple Seeds are fictitious characters. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 505 Chad 2022-11-17 18:04:00

Re: post-504 Republicans should decide for themselves. They don't have to wait for Fox News to tell them how they should think. I haven't heard the speech yet. I'm glad you liked it. I'll listen to it when I get the chance.

... ..Reply.. Forum 504 gary 2022-11-17 15:12:31

re: post-502  What we all perceice came to mind today when I watched Nancy Pelosi's speech, I really liked it but I am sure everyone listening would have their own feeling's about it. She came accross to me as a good Christian lady, I'm sure Republicans would see this differently. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 503 gary 2022-11-17 15:06:57

re: post-501 One cool autumnal night, while lying by his camp-fire in the woods, he observed that the mosquitoes flew in the blaze and were burned. Johnny, who wore on his head a tin utensil which answered both as a cap and a mush pot, filled it with water and quenched the fire, and afterwards remarked, "God forbid that I should build a fire for my comfort, that should be the means of destroying any of His creatures." Another time, he allegedly made a camp-fire in a snowstorm at the end of a hollow log in which he intended to pass the night but found it occupied by a bear and cubs, so he removed his fire to the other end and slept on the snow in the open air, rather than disturb the bear.

This is the real Johnny, why are there two Johnny Appleseeds?  Anyway enough of Johnny.

... ..Reply.. Forum 502 Chad 2022-11-17 13:51:41

re: post-501 I think this is something we should consider. It all is essentially invented. 

“Reality is what we take to be true,” pioneering physicist David Bohm, Asserted in 1977, “What we take to be true is what we believe. What we believe is based upon our perceptions. What we perceive depends on what we look for. What we look for depends on what we think. What we think depends on what we perceive. What we perceive determines what we believe. What we believe determines what we take to be true. What we take to be true is our reality.”

... ..Reply.. Forum 501 Chad 2022-11-17 12:53:14

re: post-500 It is fiction. Joshua Whitehead is a good storyteller. I'll have to be the judge of its quality because I'm the one reading it. You realize that you are making a judgment before you know anything about the book's content and what it might reveal.

... ..Reply.. Forum 500 gary 2022-11-17 11:46:15

re: post-498 No not suitable reading, sounds like a mother's boy.

... ..Reply.. Forum 499 Chad 2022-11-17 09:49:57

re: post-498 I wonder if should we should see pleasure as evil? Any thoughts?

... ..Reply.. Forum 498 Chad 2022-11-16 19:39:24

re: post-497 His Grandmother's nickname was kokum. Gary, I suspect that you may not find this book suitable and or agreeable with your beliefs. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 497 Chad 2022-11-16 09:53:25

re: post-493 I'm reading Johnny Appleseed written by Joshua Whitehead. It has won the CBC Canada Reads competition. The main character is an Ojibwe/Cree gay sometimes prostitute on the rez and other urban locations. He is strongly connected to his mother and grandmother he calls hokum. It is an interesting unique perspective that he gives his readers. It is very well written. I'm about a quarter of the way in so far. I'm sure I'll have it finished by the end of the week. You might ask, what does this have to do with Philip Yancey? Nothing except that it delves into the spirit of others we should know about and accept for who they are.   

... ..Reply.. Forum 496 Lou 2022-11-15 18:27:05

re: post-495 He is right as always. We reached 8B population but the good news is that the trend is toward slowing down.

... ..Reply.. Forum 495 Chad 2022-11-15 18:05:52

... ..Reply.. Forum 494 Chad 2022-11-15 13:17:32

re: post-493 There are many poems like this one. It feels like an elongated proverb to me.

I just bought the Jungle Book. I plan to read it to Jade when she gets a bit older. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 493 gary 2022-11-15 10:31:40

re: post-492  https://poets.org/poem/if    Just wondered iif Chad liked this poem.  Been kind of thinking about it the last few days.  Quoted in a book I am reading by Philip Yancey.

... ..Reply.. Forum 492 Chad 2022-11-14 16:54:38

re: post-491 The one you mentioned in 487.

... ..Reply.. Forum 491 Lou 2022-11-14 15:43:41

re: post-488 Chad, what group did you apply to be a member of?

... ..Reply.. Forum 490 Chad 2022-11-14 13:07:56

re: post-489 None of this disturbs me, Gary. If churches feel they need to leave the Anglican communion they should be allowed to leave with no hard feelings Which views should the church embrace? Certainly, it is my views that are the ones that should be embraced, he said jokingly. There is no end to the number of polarizing subjects that the church can be divided on. There is no end to groups that can be demonized and persecuted. It is the negative issues and the loudest voices that grab our attention. It's our human nature. Try not to be too disturbed by it. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 489 gary 2022-11-14 09:59:00

re: post-482 "About 650 bishops attended this summer’s Lambeth Conference, a gathering of Anglican bishops from around the world which last met in 2008. Much media coverage of the conference focused on disagreement over same-sex marriage, particularly after primates of Nigeria, Rwanda and Uganda refused to attend in protest at the invitation of bishops in same-sex unions. The same three provinces had already boycotted the 2008 gathering—attending a meeting of conservative bishops, the Global Anglican Futures Conference, in Jerusalem instead—as well as the meeting of Anglican Communion primates in March 2022. "   What a sad state of affairs when some try to twist nature!  g.

... ..Reply.. Forum 488 Chad 2022-11-13 12:44:22

re: post-487 I applied to be a member of the group. 

Prayer is an interesting topic. I feel prayer should be a spontaneous silent expression of our true feelings. A snapshot of our emotional state. Attempt, with a clear mind, to shed and empty ourselves of these short-lived emotions  Words and rationale are not necessary. Silence is a good prayer.

... ..Reply.. Forum 487 Lou 2022-11-13 08:48:06

If it's not about Love it's not about God.

... ..Reply.. Forum 486 gary 2022-11-12 18:49:22

re: post-484 I like Justin Welby, I will look at this site myself.  How was pizza day?

... ..Reply.. Forum 485 Lou 2022-11-11 15:50:00

Exploring Prayer with Justin Welby - Home Groups


... ..Reply.. Forum 484 Lou 2022-11-11 15:48:57

Exploring Prayer with Justin Welby - Home Groups


... ..Reply.. Forum 483 gary 2022-11-11 12:09:09

See I can go off the beaten path, reading about Julian of Norwich and her theology.  Her books and quotes have lasted hundreds of year, not like our fluffernutter theologiansof today. Thanks for the last word.

re: post-473

... ..Reply.. Forum 482 Chad 2022-11-10 11:42:46

re: post-481  Extreme nationalism and extreme religious beliefs can intertwine with one another and the group thinking can get quite blurry in some sense and weirdly focused in other ways. Some get confused as to which is which. Quite often led by misguided and misguiding charismatic individuals. When authority, law, and nationalism are deeply embedded in religious beliefs and dogma it tends to lead to negative results and suffering for any internal opposition, ethnic, or visible minorities. Some are more prone to this form of religious nationalism than others. It can lead to a dangerous situation for all. I feel our spirituality should shun these ideals especially if their policies are or are becoming extreme and controlling.

... ..Reply.. Forum 481 Lou 2022-11-09 20:31:29

re: post-480 I wonder if distrust of strangers, aggression, and war Including what amounts to 'war-on-the-environment' isn't what keeps communities together and occupied so they don't become discontent and restless leading to Trumpism, Brexit, and worse.
Idle hands in thinkers lead to discovery but in the majority, it leads to mischief.

What you are saying could be true for a proselytizing religion but not for religion in general. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 480 Chad 2022-11-09 13:11:39

Please do. I wonder if the genes related to our propensity toward war are the same ones for our propensity toward religion. They just express themselves differently at times. There is an expression that there are no atheists in the trenches under fire.

... ..Reply.. Forum 479 Lou 2022-11-09 10:53:47

re: post-478 Inspiration is supposed to lead to a reply and it would have averted my post asking for clarification. I tried to have this forum page work without the initial blank input form but couldn't. We should only use it if what we want to say has nothing to do with a recent post.

I am busy installing a new Lenovo desktop computer - the old one died - so I'll try to do justice to your post 478 when I'm finished.


... ..Reply.. Forum 478 Chad 2022-11-09 10:17:14

475 inspired it. For the most part, humans are irrational beings. That mindset has helped us to be a successful dominant species. War gives us purpose and a unifying cause. It's a game that horrifies and also glorifies us at the same time. Ordinary men can become heroes by killing or by saving other ordinary men, however, most will die prematurely. We honor and celebrate those that died on the side we favor and say they died honorably in battle and service. That is if they were victorious. Most men carry this angst and dependency to some degree. We understand it at a deep psychological level. War is a way to express it. Tolkien captures this beautifully.  

... ..Reply.. Forum 477 Lou 2022-11-09 08:31:45

re: post-476 Chad, is that a response to post-475? 


... ..Reply.. Forum 476 Chad 2022-11-08 23:08:38

What is the angst that we feel? Can we clearly define the cause or causes? Are they real or are they imagined? Does it make a difference?

... ..Reply.. Forum 475 Lou 2022-11-08 20:27:00

So that the people of Gondor in time of peace, justice, and prosperity, would become discontent and restless...JRR Tolkien

Substitute ' the west' for ' Gondor' and he is describing the cause of Brexit, Trump, etc.

... ..Reply.. Forum 474 Lou 2022-11-08 19:43:17

re: post-473 Even if a passage from the Bible were quoted verbatim on that Facebook page, Gary would find umbrage to it. Gary has stated that no matter how much good Bill Gates does he is still going to hell unless he believes in Jesus Christ; there's no evidence in the Gospel that Jesus imposed any such condition. Gary, if you think that Jesus does then please quote which verse makes you believe that he does.
The way society sees things evolved from the environment it developed in and it would be a more Christ-like world if we allowed other societies freedom to view things their own way without passing judgment.

... ..Reply.. Forum 473 Chad 2022-11-08 09:10:33

I was looking at the entries under the Facebook icon and I can not see anything that contravenes Christ's teaching. I didn't find anything that was remotely frightening either. We perceive and therefore understand things differently. We project our own interpretations, temperament, and assumptions into the things we observe. Although it is difficult at times, I think it is important to try to see the world through others' eyes. There may be spookiness under the Facebook icon. I'm just having trouble seeing it.

... ..Reply.. Forum 472 Lou 2022-11-08 07:01:14

re: post-471 A cheese pizza or other bread and cheese combination would be fine. Same from Nancy.

... ..Reply.. Forum 471 Chad 2022-11-07 21:26:43

What should we bring?

... ..Reply.. Forum 470 Lou 2022-11-07 18:46:22

re: post-468 Yes, it does.

... ..Reply.. Forum 468 Chad 2022-11-07 17:58:32

Finally, we are available this Saturday. Does that work for you, Lou?

... ..Reply.. Forum 467 Chad 2022-11-07 11:16:37

It is very likely that our perceptions of good and bad are related to our self-preservation. In today's world of confusion, conflicting interests, and deception our natural basic instincts are easily overwhelmed and manipulated. We crave consistency and predictability. We are prepared to pay a high price in an attempt to obtain it. We don't like surprises and bent expectations. We are easily disappointed. If the gap between our expectations and reality is too large we get anxious and depressed.

Our spiritual beliefs and perceptions are a reaction to the reality we perceive and the future we predict. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 466 Chad 2022-11-06 19:16:26

Merton was a sensitive open-minded monk. He went into the world to find other poets, soulmates, and friends. He gave us gifts from his beautiful soul. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 465 gary 2022-11-06 14:00:51

re: post-464  Don't need to, Chad said it all.

... ..Reply.. Forum 464 Lou 2022-11-06 13:58:24

re: post-462 Gary, I don't think it would be too much to ask to be told who you are quoting and what you get out of it, and how it's relevant it is to the ongoing discussion.

... ..Reply.. Forum 463 Chad 2022-11-06 13:34:40

What is not Biblical? What does this non-Biblical universe look like? Could it be expressions of active imagination, based on personal perceptions? There is only one Universe. What our minds do with it is polysemous. We can't easily escape our mind's follies and misconceptions. There are universal truths and falsehoods that are embedded in our society's myths. We have naturally accepted them just by living in a particular society with our peculiar minds.

Merton had a lovely way of expressing the beauty of the known natural universe versus its unknowable mysteries. 



... ..Reply.. Forum 462 gary 2022-11-06 09:04:08

My Zen is the slow swinging tops of sixteen pine trees.  One long thin pole of a tree fifty feet high swings in a wider arc than all the others and swings even when they are still.

Hundreds of little elms springing up  out of the dry ground under the pines.  My watch lies among the oak leaves.  My tee shirt hangs on the barbed wire fence, and the wind sings in the bare woods.

... ..Reply.. Forum 461 Lou 2022-11-06 07:19:32

re: post-457 Gary, what is it that you find spooky? What do you find devilish on that page?

Instead of complaining about that 'Facebook icon' find something inspirational on Facebook and post it as a link on the Forum. That would be a lot better than your critical attitude. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 460 gary 2022-11-06 07:03:12

No Lou, they are not nonbiblical, but most of the stuff on that site is.

... ..Reply.. Forum 459 Lou 2022-11-05 19:20:07
Are you saying that Truth, Compassion, and Forbearance are nonbiblical? I read in the Gospel that Jesus's teaching covered all three of those.

... ..Reply.. Forum 458 gary 2022-11-04 19:05:46

Should be (some)

... ..Reply.. Forum 457 gary 2022-11-04 19:05:08

The facebook icon has soom spooky spiritual non biblical stuff on there, but I guess the devil needs a platform too.

... ..Reply.. Forum 456 Lou 2022-11-03 10:37:04

re: post-451 Overriding the program can easily, and does, lead to anything from the inability to leave a bike unattended to Putin's war.
We need to fix the bugs in the program and tweak it instead of overriding it.

... ..Reply.. Forum 455 Chad 2022-11-02 23:01:52

BTW we have dropped our landline and we can be reached at 905 439 8645. That is Sarah's cell phone number. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 454 Lou 2022-11-01 15:01:30

Let us know 

... ..Reply.. Forum 453 Chad 2022-11-01 14:57:37

Lou, we just found out we are going to be looking after our granddaughter on Saturday. I think that we will be available next Saturday.

... ..Reply.. Forum 452 Lou 2022-11-01 08:19:42


Pizza Saturday at noon. Anyone?


... ..Reply.. Forum 451 Chad 2022-10-29 14:41:22

We think and act the way we have been programmed to think and act. Knowing this, we can override the program.



... ..Reply.. Forum 450 Chad 2022-10-29 10:30:55

Good point, Lou, the way we frame things can make a big difference. We can be defeatist, negative, and insecure. On the other hand, we can choose to be open-minded and proactive in a loving manner. The 2 salespeople come to mind. It is a choice.

... ..Reply.. Forum 449 Lou 2022-10-29 08:22:46

... ..Reply.. Forum 448 Chad 2022-10-28 22:50:33

You're welcome.


... ..Reply.. Forum 447 gary 2022-10-28 21:06:46

Chad thanks for the compliment and the last word. ;-)

... ..Reply.. Forum 446 Chad 2022-10-28 17:01:42

Gary understands these issues better than I do. I'll let him be the judge. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 445 Lou 2022-10-28 14:44:35

Matt 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven—only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. "

Especially not the one who says 'whatever!'.

... ..Reply.. Forum 444 gary 2022-10-28 12:53:41

I'm just saying, not too hard to tell a goat from a sheep,  probably true a goat could become a sheep if it accepts Christ as it's saviour.  Only way.

... ..Reply.. Forum 443 Chad 2022-10-28 10:57:27

That is a tricky one Lou. It's hard not to judge who we suspect might be a goat. What we may do is tactfully and carefully confront undesirable or harmful behavior. A person is multi-dimensional and may have beneficial traits even though some of their behaviors may be questionable. Hardly anyone is completely bad or evil. We should always question our own motives and perceptions before taking any action. On the other hand, we should not be placid or complacent. We will make mistakes. The sins of omission can be just as damning as the sins of our actions.

... ..Reply.. Forum 442 Lou 2022-10-28 08:21:35

If we follow Christ's command to love each other and practice that love, we will not end up as goats. I think that the sheep vs. goat dichotomy distracts the parable's message. The message I get is that service is what leads to heaven and not belief and proselytizing. If we feel that someone is a goat, we should jump at the occasion to offer help without passing judgment.
Christ's words and examples tell us that service is our only way to salvation.

... ..Reply.. Forum 441 Chad 2022-10-27 16:28:54

I liked your response, Lou. I oversimplified the metaphor. The passage wasn't meant to be polarizing. It was meant to be encouraging. Making it an, us vs them, passage would lead most Christians to identify, with the good side, or the sheep's side. Giving some an excuse to degrade and even fear others who they may feel are goats. We get into a downward spiral of negativity when we interpret it in that way. Lou is right Christ decides who's who. He gives us an idea of how despicable you need to be considered a goat. We shouldn't worry. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 440 Lou 2022-10-27 13:10:08

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ Matt 25:45

That's the behavior that Jesus told us made them to be goats instead of sheep and kept them out of the Kingdom.

Gary whether you know who the gita is or not is of no interest to us. What we want to know is your opinion on the topic in question.
Chad raised some points and so did I; what are your thoughts on any of that?

... ..Reply.. Forum 439 gary 2022-10-27 12:05:10

It's really bad to be considered a goat if you want to be in the Kingdom.  Lou's right, the sheep follow the Shepherd. I don't know who the gita is, don't really care either, but fix your mind on God, you can't go wrong.

... ..Reply.. Forum 438 Lou 2022-10-27 09:42:06

We are not called to be mindless sheep but rather to be sheep whose mind is focussed on the shepherd. Sheep do not deserve that mindless reputation.
We are also called to be as little children.
The Gita tells us the same thing. The Gita tells us to fix our minds on God and act for his sake.
We are to let go of things and then take care of them ( our bodies, our neighbors, and our environment ) in God's name. Do the best we can without any expectation other than a job well done.
If one truly Loves God and Neighbor sn oneself then that one has no limitations and taboos and acts only for the good of all. Not easy to state to achieve but benefits are found along the way. So the Gita and the Gospels tell us. Do we really understand what Jesus meant when he said "pick up your cross and follow me"?

... ..Reply.. Forum 437 Chad 2022-10-27 08:42:31

Isn't it better to be liberated by Christ even if we might still consider ourselves goats rather than mindless sheep restricted by assumed false limitations and taboos? 

... ..Reply.. Forum 436 Chad 2022-10-26 20:59:42

I like what you said in your last post. There is a difference between people who want to advance their society with a thoughtful compassionate approach and those that want to overthrow established governance for personal gain.  

... ..Reply.. Forum 435 Chad 2022-10-26 20:07:59

I like what you said in your last post. There is a difference between people who want to advance their society with a thoughtful compassionate approach and those that want to overthrow established governance for personal gain.  

... ..Reply.. Forum 434 Lou 2022-10-26 07:54:20

One way of looking at it is that we are born into this world and have to do whatever it takes to survive and adapting to the environment both our physical and our cultural environment is the only way that can be achieved. From a baby's only concern with its own survival to the farmer cultivating poppy, that being his only means of feeding his family, an animal does whatever it takes to survive.
Christ and others before him and since clearly show us the path through their teachings and actions. We too often misunderstand their teachings and get carried away leading to pogroms and jihads. While discomfort with the status quo and a call for reform are healthy overdoing it can lead to Trump, Brexit, etc.

... ..Reply.. Forum 433 Chad 2022-10-25 14:24:15

I get your point. We are psychologically influenced by our society. That may be a stronger influence than our own nature to be negative, wanting instant gratification, and being suspicious and afraid of others. It is impossible to untangle ourselves completely from our informing society. In that way, we are made goats by both our susceptible nature and society's influence. Christ clearly shows us the path through his teachings and actions. Our hesitation, excuses, and societal pressure make the path difficult to assimilate. Our modern society is just like societies in the past that get muddled with the prevailing ideas of the dominant society. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 432 Lou 2022-10-25 13:26:21

I suggest that what you are describing is not our nature but rather what our culture teaches us. I think we would be more successful even in our dealings with our daily tasks if we were to follow his teaching.

... ..Reply.. Forum 431 Chad 2022-10-25 11:18:36

Christ shows us clearly the path to follow through his teaching and his actions. His path is counterintuitive to our natural instinct to be negative, want instant gratification, and be suspicious and afraid of others. It is difficult to break away from our natural tendencies to be self-centered and fearful. In a way, we are goats by nature. We tend to make the path more muddled and difficult than it has to be.   

... ..Reply.. Forum 430 Lou 2022-10-25 08:57:50

Nothing would exist if it weren't for God's love. Love is creation, compassion, and service.
Jesus came and showed us that love means service even unto death.
Jesus said, "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven".
The goat and sheep judgment parable reaffirms that service is what he expects of us.

That is meant to describe God's love that we are called upon to spread.

... ..Reply.. Forum 429 Lou 2022-10-25 07:58:40

Forum 427 was aimed at Gary who keeps forgetting how to post a link and paste it as text instead.

We do not need to quote each other, especially in answer to a post.
What I suggested in 427 makes it easier for us to know the source of a quote. Quotes are indented in non-fiction writings. Let's stick to the exchange of ideas on this forum.

Let's get back to my post 424 and instead of quoting what I wrote state what you understand that I meant by what I wrote.


... ..Reply.. Forum 428 Chad 2022-10-24 21:06:01

Hopefully, my words have God's blessing.

I hoped it was obvious that I was referencing your post. I made my post directly after yours. However, I will use quotation marks in the future. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 427 Lou 2022-10-24 10:36:07

Please post a link using the link icon 

Please use the Block Quote to post text 

The reason for posting links and text that way is to make it easier to tell who is talking. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 426 Lou 2022-10-21 20:58:02

There are unlimited possibilities for us to consider and engage in. We are people that are open to the endless possibilities that are always available.  Chad

True but we must always give credit to God.

... ..Reply.. Forum 425 Chad 2022-10-21 16:04:54

Nothing would exist if it weren't for God's love. Love is creation, compassion, and service.
Jesus came and showed us that love means service even unto death.

Looking at the above statement we are able to assess where we stand. We are totally free to express our genuine love and gratitude in our thoughts, words, and actions. There are unlimited possibilities for us to consider and engage in. We are people that are open to the endless possibilities that are always available. Nothing is guaranteed unless we fail to act. We must not be afraid to make a mistake or worse yet hesitate.

... ..Reply.. Forum 424 Lou 2022-10-21 08:54:09

Nothing would exist if it weren't for God's love. Love is creation, compassion, and service.
Jesus came and showed us that love means service even unto death.

Jesus said, "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven".
The goat and sheep judgment parable reaffirms that service is what he expects of us.

... ..Reply.. Forum 423 Lou 2022-10-21 08:13:08

Ciao, Gary.

... ..Reply.. Forum 422 gary 2022-10-21 07:18:53

No pizza for us.

... ..Reply.. Forum 421 Chad 2022-10-20 23:03:50

What struck me was the idea that without love you have nothing. I have difficulty with Paul's writing at times as well. At times, he drifts away from how I envision Christ's ministry.

... ..Reply.. Forum 420 Lou 2022-10-20 18:33:16

Jesus didn't have as much to say about love but he practiced love never ostracising anyone as Paul did.

... ..Reply.. Forum 419 Lou 2022-10-20 18:29:33

Since we don't want to use the ability to reply to a post or start a new topic I have removed the ability and rely on the writer indicating which previous post he is commenting about.

... ..Reply.. Forum 418 Chad 2022-10-20 13:30:55

post-1417 Paul states the message of love clearly. 

1 Corinthians 13:1-3

13 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.

... ..Reply.. Forum 417 Lou 2022-10-20 09:15:25

re: post-1416 so it will be done!

... ..Reply.. Forum 416 Chad 2022-10-20 09:14:49

re: post-1414 Nov 5 would be better for us.

... ..Reply.. Forum 415 Chad 2022-10-20 09:14:43

re: post-1414 Nov 5 would be better for us.

... ..Reply.. Forum 414 Lou 2022-10-20 09:14:13

re: post-1413 Following week, perhaps?

... ..Reply.. Forum 413 Chad 2022-10-20 09:14:03

re: post-1412 I will be closing up the cottage. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 412 Lou 2022-10-20 09:13:56
Pizza Saturday at noon. Anyone?


... ..Reply.. Forum 411 Lou 2022-10-20 09:13:28

re: post-1409 Thank you Chad. I love your post and agree entirely.

... ..Reply.. Forum 410 Lou 2022-10-20 09:13:15

re: post-1408 I don't see where the granting of wishes comes in it since working is involved, not wishing.
Asking God for a cure could be called "using Him as if he was a genie in the bottle and granting your wishes", thanking him for the unasked-for cure cannot.

... ..Reply.. Forum 409 Chad 2022-10-20 09:13:01

Re: post-1407 We can thank God that we exist and that we can appreciate his creation. We should be very grateful because we did not remain dust and that we will become dust again.  We should also be grateful for the endless possibilities to love and lift others up. We should be grateful for the endless opportunities to support others in their trials and tribulations. We can be thankful that we can celebrate with others and look for opportunities to celebrate, laugh, and dance with joy with God and others.  

... ..Reply.. Forum 408 Gary 2022-10-20 09:12:36

re: post-1407 Your kind of using Him as if he was a genie in the bottle and granted your wishes.

... ..Reply.. Forum 404 Lou 2022-10-20 09:12:22

re: post-1406 There's no need to start a new denomination since everything you mention can and should be done at home.

... ..Reply.. Forum 407 Lou 2022-10-20 09:12:01

re: post-1402 I remember thanking God for having passed tests or having fixed problems.

... ..Reply.. Forum 406 Lou 2022-10-19 08:16:34

We are to show our faith by praying to Jesus and yet In Luke 8:22-25, Mark 4:35-41, and Matt 8:23-27 Jesus rebukes them for having little faith.
Is he telling them and us that we are to have faith in our being able to take care of our own problems: fixing them or, if there's no solution, learning to cope with them?

... ..Reply.. Forum 405 Lou 2022-10-18 18:36:48

re: post-1408 Since you have gone only a couple of times to something like that I can only come to the conclusion that you are not interested.

... ..Reply.. Forum 403 Gary 2022-10-18 17:49:45

re: post-1404 We basically get that Wednesday mornings 9am Christ Church, or so I am told.  Only gone a couple of times. May start up again. The devils works overtime keeping me busy so I miss most weeks.

... ..Reply.. Forum 402 Chad 2022-10-18 17:44:02

re: post-1406 I watched the first session regarding prayer again. I think it is a good topic for discussion. A bonus is that each session is short and sweet and can be consulted repeatedly without taking up too much time.  

... ..Reply.. Forum 401 Chad 2022-10-18 17:01:58

re: post-1405 I wasn't saying that people shouldn't gather on Sundays or Saturdays for fellowship. They need that community attachment. What about a silent time in the sanctuary followed by a coffee hour for informal fellowship and discussion? You could leave after the quiet time or even during it. The minister would be available as he is now for a personal consultation. He could if invited attend small groups during the week. All possibilities could be open for a trial run. Run a program for a short time. Drop it before attendance drops off. Start something new after that. After some time, say a year, repeat popular programs. Clergy involvement should be minimal. The clergy should encourage and assist people in being responsible for their own independent study. There should be no spoon-feeding. Just some thoughts.

Let me look at the Bishop's site again. We are closing the cottage up next weekend so I should be available then.

... ..Reply.. Forum 400 Lou 2022-10-18 13:58:28

re: post-1404 Silent reading, personal prayer, meditation, and self-reflection are to be taken care of at home, morning and evening.  I use the prayers and readings published on the front page of the website as a start.
Church attendance is to supply fellowship, communion, and inspiration. People who are into sports, politics, religion, etc feel a need to get together with others. 

A CofE preacher had a moment of silence at the end of her sermon.

Assuming this is still about prayer I wonder if you guys would be interested in Archbishop Welby's five sessions on prayer( offered on the front page ). Meeting once a week to study it together or reading and viewing on our own and commenting here.

... ..Reply.. Forum 399 Chad 2022-10-18 13:08:20

post-1403 If Peter said we will be forgoing the sermons and instead the congregation should use that time for silent reading, personal prayer, meditation, and self-reflection, would that be OK? That would take the pressure off the preacher and the critiquing of his words and his imperfect style, therefore putting the onus on the congregation to be responsible for their own thoughts and prayers. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 398 Chad 2022-10-18 11:07:52

re: post-1402 Not getting what we ask for can be disappointing, especially if we have high expectations of getting what we want. God's will does not work that way. Sometimes a pleading prayer is all we have available. Christ's example of his prayer in the garden is something to consider. He accepted his fate and God's will even though he was deeply saddened by it. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 397 Lou 2022-10-18 07:58:50

re: post-1401 There are at least four reasons we pray. Praying to God to fix a problem can easily not understanding and accepting the answer lead to disappointment and negative feelings.

... ..Reply.. Forum 396 Chad 2022-10-17 21:29:35

re: post-1396  Prayer and meditation is good and uplifting. We are probably doing something wrong if we are disappointed or have negative feelings about it.

... ..Reply.. Forum 395 Chad 2022-10-17 20:44:27

re: post-1395 I didn't label all religions poisonous. If you are saying some churches are much better than others then I agree with you. Churches are man-made institutions so they reflect the societies that support them.

... ..Reply.. Forum 394 Lou 2022-10-16 15:20:23

re: post1398. The length of a sermon is a minor factor in how I judge a sermon. The relevance of what is being said is all important.
That's the third of peter's sermons that I listened to and if Christ church were to resume the 8 am BCP service and promised that he would be the regular preacher I would return to Christ Church. 

I liked the idea of having us as the judge who refuses to listen when God reaches for us.  
As far as the "wearing down" Jesus is the one who said it, the preacher didn't make that up and the point is that we don't have to wear God down, the repetition is for our own benefit. 
The way I see it is that if we're persistent enough in our prayers we'll be inspired, by God, to do whatever is needed to fix our problem or at least to learn how to live with it.

... ..Reply.. Forum 393 Gary 2022-10-16 12:06:06

re: post-1396 Short enough that I could listen to it, I don't get the wear down part, prayer should be uplifting, you always get an answer.  Listening to Peter's sermon at Christ Church this morn, he is getting better.

... ..Reply.. Forum 392 Gary 2022-10-16 11:55:36

re: post-1395  Waiting for Chad to respond.

... ..Reply.. Forum 391 Lou 2022-10-16 09:44:38

An excellent sermon. Persistence in prayer is not to wear God down but to wear us down.

... ..Reply.. Forum 390 Lou 2022-10-14 15:55:30

re: post-1391 Gary, I don't agree with Chad's labeling of all religions as being " the religious poison that surrounds us." but some sect has been promoting violence and cruelty more than virtue and salvation. Also churches today are no worse and no better than they have been for the last 2000 years.

... ..Reply.. Forum 389 Lou 2022-10-14 15:42:29

re: post-1393 Gary, don't you agree that post-1392 is easier to read and to know who is talking? The indentation (  set up by using the ' ' icon above- to the left of the Styles icon ) shows that it is a quote and pressing Enter twice to get out of the quotation mode lets you reveal your thoughts on the subject.

Can you try to do that? It makes it easier to understand who is talking in addition to being more elegant.

... ..Reply.. Forum 388 Lou 2022-10-14 15:30:45

re: post-1392 

Romans 16:17
17 I urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.

"It is sinful to have that kind of disunity, and even worse to try and create disunity."  Scott DeVries. 

Just thought it kind of says something about our churches today. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 387 Gary 2022-10-14 14:39:55

re: post-1391 Roman 16: 17 I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them.   "It is sinful to have that kind of disunity, and even worse to try and create disunity."  Scott DeVries.   Just thought it kind of says something about our churches today. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 386 Gary 2022-10-14 14:11:36

re: post-1390 I don't think religion is a poison, it's the prince of this world that is poisoning peoples minds,  Have more to say later.

... ..Reply.. Forum 385 Chad 2022-10-07 09:33:12

I posted my previous post before I watched the Youtube video based on Einstein's thoughts. Thank God we live in a time where our philosophy and spirituality can be discussed freely. Hopefully we can hold off the religious poison that surrounds us.

... ..Reply.. Forum 384 Chad 2022-10-07 09:31:25

I like the idea of a cosmic perspective. Christianity is only one of many ways of considering the inner and outer cosmos and defining our perimeter of ignorance.

... ..Reply.. Forum 383 Chad 2022-10-06 08:41:01

Thank you for that youtube with Einstein's quotes. His cosmic religion is the one I fully endorse. I have never had it articulated in such a beautiful way before.

... ..Reply.. Forum 382 Lou 2022-09-26 08:17:38

Our separation from each other is an optical illusion. Albert Einstein


... ..Reply.. Forum 381 Chad 2022-09-23 14:54:53

I think you are right Lou. I think we can all agree that the church for the most part has the personal and corporate rituals nailed down. These rituals are important milestones and psychologically center and regulate us in the natural flow of the seasons. Of course, all of the above-mentioned activities are directly related to the stories we have been told and that we tell ourselves. It all loses traction and relevance in the growing secular world quite quickly. We are telling ourselves new stories but they don't have the same 4000-year backdrop. I think we should adopt more of the aboriginal stories and philosophy to augment those new stories to give them additional credence and ritual. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 380 Lou 2022-09-23 08:06:23

In that quote, Barry Lopez describes what attending Church services is supposed to do for us. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 379 Chad 2022-09-21 13:48:32

Christians have the freedom to choose from a myriad of options available regarding all aspects of their faith. Christianity is very flexible and will fit almost any belief system. Christianity is whatever it needs to be in the eyes of the beholder. Each Christian feels his idea and version of Christianity are correct. My conclusion is that it doesn't matter what a Christian believes. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 378 Chad 2022-09-19 00:45:19

In all human societies, there is a desire to love and be loved, to experience the full fierceness of human emotion, and to make a measure of the sacred part of one’s life… The most dependable way to preserve these possibilities is to be reminded of them in stories. Stories do not give instruction, they do not explain how to love a companion or how to find God. They offer, instead, patterns of sound and association, of event and image. Suspended as listeners and readers in these patterns, we might reimagine our lives. It is through stories that we embrace the great breadth of memory, that we can distinguish what is true, and that we may glimpse, at least occasionally, how to live without despair in the midst of the horror that dogs and unhinges us.

Barry Lopez

... ..Reply.. Forum 377 Chad 2022-09-18 09:58:12

At the moment nothing, in particular, comes to mind. The Lord of the Dance is a nice little ditty.

... ..Reply.. Forum 376 Gary 2022-09-17 19:17:09


Only place it would let me post this. Maybe you two have a favorute song or hymn.

... ..Reply.. Forum 375 Chad 2022-09-16 17:01:52

I agree there is no call for extra sentiments or actions unless the situation calls for extraordinary actions or sentiments. I believe that Jesus was moved by the plight and suffering of the people he encountered. Jesus cried on a least one occasion. If dying on the cross and then being resurrected isn't extraordinary, I wouldn't know what might be. On the other hand, I don't think he ever lost his primary focus, all his actions were based on it. Buddhism tells us a different story with a different approach to pain, suffering, and desire. Both mythologies can be helpful in informing our spiritual perspective. There are universal truths in both which should come as no surprise. I'm enjoying this conversation. I wonder if Gary is following it. I never know.

... ..Reply.. Forum 374 Lou 2022-09-16 16:00:44

I must make it clear that what I am saying is that there is no call for extraordinary sentiments or actions. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 373 Lou 2022-09-16 15:56:22

What you are saying there just about covers it, all I would add is that we are called upon to follow their examples. Selfishness is the only thing that stands in the way not the call for extraordinary sentiments or actions. Looking at this in a holistic way would help understand the concept and in getting over the use of the word hate.

... ..Reply.. Forum 372 Chad 2022-09-16 13:52:35

It was the use of hatred that I thought unusual and used for emphasis by Luke to show how serious Christ was about the requirement and commitment required to be a disciple. Combining the Eightfold Path and the Sermon on the Mount guides to living a healthy and holy spiritual life is admirable and intelligent. The way I understand it which may not be in sync with your thoughts is that the idea is to lose ourselves, our desires, and our appetite for control and self-justification. It has been pointed out time and again that we are not the center of the Universe. We are not as important as we think we are as individuals and as a society. It is love and intelligence that make us unique. Gandhi, Nelson Mandela, and Queen Elizabeth II were special because of their personal sacrifice, going beyond the call of duty for their nation, and their genuine concern for all humanity. Absolutely everything exists from our human perspective and comprehension. We can not escape our humanness, and humanity as long as we are alive. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 371 Lou 2022-09-16 10:43:14

 "I won't be renouncing my family members anytime soon. " this confirms for me that you don't understand what renunciation means the way Hindus, Buddhists, and Christ(or so I claim understood it. ). I think that the same thing applies to Quote 41 Dated: 2022-09-12 13 which I maintain is to be applied to how we live here and now

In Quote-412 I quoted myself and signed the quote. You quoted yourself in quote-414 but neglected to sign.

... ..Reply.. Forum 370 Chad 2022-09-16 09:57:02

          I would say his primary focus was on his love for God. His love for humanity and the world would a close second. look at what he says about the first 2 commandments. He is bound to them as we should be. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 369 Lou 2022-09-15 16:20:31

Jesus walked the talk and lived a life of renunciation, yet he brought his friend Lazarus back to life after crying, provided wine when needed, and ensured his mother would be taken care of after his death. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 368 Lou 2022-09-15 16:05:21

Renouncing our family enables us to truly love God, Self, neighbors, and enemies and to really follow the Eightfold Path and the teaching of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount. Lou

You misunderstand what renunciation is all about. The public lives of Gandhi, Nelson Mandela, and Queen Elizabeth II are good examples. Living the Eightfold path and the Sermon on the Mount is what we should strive for.

Renouncing even works when trying to find the solution to a problem: stepping back from it, looking at it with a detached attitude, and forgetting yourself gives you more power to find a solution.

... ..Reply.. Forum 366 Chad 2022-09-15 15:31:55

At any given moment we have two options: To step forward into growth or to step back into safety.

Abraham Maslow


... ..Reply.. Forum 367 Chad 2022-09-15 15:31:55

At any given moment we have two options: To step forward into growth or to step back into safety.

Abraham Maslow


... ..Reply.. Forum 365 Chad 2022-09-14 22:54:34

I won't be renouncing my family members anytime soon. In my books, you show your love for God by passing on the message of love, and acts of goodwill wherever and whenever you can. By renouncing everything we lose the context for doing good works. Jesus needed that context to carry out his ministry. We don't do his bidding for a reward or for selfish reasons or because we were told to do it. We are the ones who need to lose our ego and self-importance. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 364 Lou 2022-09-14 14:37:17

If we remember that a disciple is one who follows a master then everyone is called to be a disciple and will obtain enlightenment eventually. A monk or a nun can be more attached to their ego or to their environment than let's say a rich man in the marketplace. Letting go of is not the same as giving up everything but an attitude of detachment, of being ready to be without.

Renunciation is not a wish to abandon our family, friends, home, job, and so forth and become like a beggar; rather, it is a mind that functions to stop attachment to worldly pleasures and that seeks [ salvation or enlightenment ]

We must learn to stop our attachment through the practice of renunciation, or it will be a serious obstacle to our pure spiritual practice. Just as a bird cannot fly if it has stones tied to its legs, so we cannot make progress on the spiritual path if we are tightly tied down by the chains of attachment.

That quote is from a Buddhist text with the indicated rewording- same meaning different words.

Renouncing our family enables us to truly love God, Self, neighbors, and enemies and to really follow the Eightfold Path and the teaching of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount.

... ..Reply.. Forum 363 Chad 2022-09-14 11:48:14

Ideally, everyone obtains Enlightenment. Christ is saying through Luke that not everyone can be a disciple. My idea of it is that a disciple is the same as a follower except for the criteria which are much more stringent for a true disciple, holy man, and or monk/nun. Most of us wouldn't seriously consider it, nor should we. Christ says don't do if you can't give up everything and focus only on God's work and mission. Not only will you fail but everyone you encounter as an incompetent disciple will fail. Look at what Christ expected of his disciples and look at their inevitable fate.

... ..Reply.. Forum 362 Lou 2022-09-14 08:56:09

I view the Sermon on the Mount, the Eightfold Path, Luke 14:26, and the message of the Gospel as telling us that enlightenment/salvation, call it what you want, is achieved by giving up attachment to people and things and submitting our whole being to God who will then give it back a hundredfold. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 361 Chad 2022-09-13 15:14:16

Luke must have thought Jesus was serious because he documented it that way. I have said before there is a spectrum of Christian Believers. There are those that would deliberately put themselves in harm's way and even die for their beliefs and their Christian principles. On the other end, we have Christmas/Easter Christians that reluctantly attend family and friends' baptisms, weddings, and funerals. They would rather pursue other hobbies and recreational activities, or they may work. Some want to take parts of the Bible literally others only want some particular passages taken literally. I don't hear this one quoted literally so much as others. They probably assume Jesus is referring to someone else or that the passage only refers to zealots. 

I personally think Jesus was serious and used strong dramatic language to show the extent of commitment needed to be a true disciple. Weekend Christians need not apply. Surely he was aware that not everyone would have the wherewithal to closely follow in his footsteps. I think the parable of the Sower of Seeds shows that he was very aware of our differences to hear and engage with his words. What I think he is saying is that if you desire to be a Messiah or disciple of the one you should be deadly serious and totally committed. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 360 Lou 2022-09-13 07:56:07

~"Luke 14:26 “If anyone comes to me and is not willing to let go of father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple.~" 

I would like all three of us to share how we understand what Jesus is saying here and how seriously he means it. The word hate was used for emphasis, for shock, but was the complete sentence also used for emphasis, or was he deadly serious? Are we willing and able to take up the challenge?

... ..Reply.. Forum 359 Chad 2022-09-12 23:55:19

I meant the 13th. I agree. The Gospels demonstrate his intent. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 358 Lou 2022-09-12 13:43:08

Chad, you are saying that you will be back on Tuesday the 20th while I think that you meant this Tuesday, the 13th, or simply Tuesday.

I agree with you that Jesus had to shout since slight exaggerations were so common at the time nothing else would do. He really meant that the only way we can hear God calling is by letting go of everything and opening ourselves to God, being poor in spirit and meek is opening the door. Even in the material world approaching a task of understanding, producing, or repairing with openness(poor in spirit) and meekness is more effective. 
Reflecting on what Luke 14:24 means to us, accepting that the word hate is used for emphasis, would help us realize that Jesus's life as recorded in the Gospels was a demonstration of its meaning. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 357 Chad 2022-09-12 13:42:01

Christ's intent is to change our focus. He wants us to see what he sees. He has to shout and disturb our sensibilities to get our attention. He was aware of how difficult it is to change someone's worldview. His disciples and those closest to him took some time to understand and to come around to his goal and follow his example. Today, even those that are seriously seeking and trying to comprehend his ministry spend only a small fraction of their time doing so. Christ knows we are easily distracted by trivial and domestic matters. Many, without much effort, think they understand him. They go off wildly in all directions except the right one. That may be the main reason the Desert Fathers sought seclusion. However, Christ made his reluctant disciples go down into the valley after the Transfiguration. He sent them out to carry what they could of his message. What Jesus was saying was that his message is serious, on the other hand, it is good news. However, understanding it fully and communicating properly is difficult. It takes all of one's attention.

off to the cottage, I'll be back next Tuesday.

... ..Reply.. Forum 356 Lou 2022-09-12 13:41:11

The Sermon on the Mount

This would be a good place to start our studies. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 355 Lou 2022-09-12 13:36:53


... ..Reply.. Forum 354 Chad 2022-08-18 22:55:22

The beauty of it all comes from the unique paths the stories followed and the unique personality and perspective of the Gospel writer. A Gospel is more than the sum of its parts. John's Gospel is the most creative of the bunch partly because the society had evolved as the social environment evolved. The people were open to a slightly different approach. John's Gospel probably would have been rejected if it was written at the same time Mark wrote his. That's speculation, of course.


... ..Reply.. Forum 353 Lou 2022-08-18 15:21:46

That's an excellent article. Thank you for bringing it to our attention. I must quote from it:

Each of the four gospels depicts Jesus in a different way. These characterizations reflect the past experiences and the particular circumstances of their authors' communities. The historical evidence suggests that Mark wrote for a community deeply affected by the failure of the First Jewish Revolt against Rome. Matthew wrote for a Jewish community in conflict with the Pharisaic Judaism that dominated Jewish life in the postwar period. Luke wrote for a predominately Gentile audience eager to demonstrate that Christian beliefs in no way conflicted with their ability to serve as a good citizen of the Empire.

The oral tradition tends to remember things that impressed them, especially things that are relevant to their present situation even with some editing to help their purpose - Enphasising Pilate's efforts to free Jesus to get on the good side of the Romans as an example.



... ..Reply.. Forum 352 Chad 2022-08-18 13:38:24

Below is a link to a short PBS article giving an overview of the NT. The writing of the NT came much later than early oral stories told about Jesus. One wonders what the original story might have been. Far removed from the scribes. I wonder how close the Gospel writers were to the original story. It wouldn't matter if they were totally fabricated fiction, would it? We know that John took a very different slant from the others. Time gives more license as it passes. Technically we could write a Gospel that incorporates all the subsequent stories and the related politics since John's Gospel. We might give the task to NT Wright. If it hits a chord with current readers it could be added to a new revised Bible. A consensus would be impossible to achieve. That's a given. Some people might even think of the very idea as blasphemous no matter how altruistic the motives are for such a project. Religious people are generally very conservative and resistant to change. However, It might create a new religion if it seems reasonable to enough people. It could be called the Post-Christian Gospel. Is there anything wrong with this idea? I expect Gary to just say yes. It will be difficult to wrap his head around such a concept even if it is just for the sake of discussion.


... ..Reply.. Forum 351 Chad 2022-08-12 22:07:41

Scientists will be the first to admit that they don't definitively understand much of anything. But they can sometimes understand a subject enough to accurately predict things to very close variances.  Quite often they find that the more they know about something the more questions they can generate about it. Scientists also admit that they have not been good communicators of what they do and how they do it to the general public. Admittedly not all scientists work in science for the sake of science and expanding knowledge. Some work for for-profit organizations. They work with engineers and other specialists to create all sorts of products. They are usually motivated by money and not necessarily for the common good or common knowledge.

I can understand some of your frustration. If I try to read a scientific paper on a topic it usually doesn't take long for me to be lost in the jargon and acronyms. They are trying to do better. Alan Alda is helping them towards that end. Gary, If you have some questions about science. let me know. I'll try to get answers for you or I'll try to point you in the right direction to find it for yourself. 

Economic decisions for example. laying off 1,000,000 people is hardly ever if ever made by scientists.

Investigating unknown territory is what scientists do best. The James Webb Telescope is admittedly a huge undertaking requiring a relatively major investment. I say relatively when you compare it to the money spent by the US military in the last 3 questionable wars they have initiated. At any rate, If nothing else we will get some stunning pictures to look at. Like Hubble, it will literally expand our horizons and probably quadruple our knowledge of the Cosmos. I have a positive attitude about it all and I anticipate that I will have my socks blown off by the venture. Then again I have been interested in astronomy and cosmology since I was a little kid. Maybe you will change your mind after it brings back more pictures and information.  

... ..Reply.. Forum 350 Chad 2022-08-12 20:53:23

Yeah, there is no doubt that he was a polymath but at the same time, a devout Catholic monk. I don't consider myself a Darwinian. Darwin and Einstein have their esteemed place in history based on their profound insights, however, we have progressed to more advanced forms of biology and physics based on their efforts. Pierre Teilhard de Chardin helped in pushing that advance.

Getting back to Lou, one of the problems with what we call progress is that the wealth that is generated from it does not consider all the real costs of the surplus and profit. The rich industrial countries behave as if they are in a perpetual motion machine. We believe we can keep taking without giving back or at least paying the proper price that considers all the real costs. Costs to humanity especially the poor and disinfrachised, to the environment by degregation, depletion and polution.  A two thousand year old Redwood can reduced to certain amount of board feet a lumber but it can never be replaced, for example. As consumers we are implicit in driving this unsustable model.

... ..Reply.. Forum 349 gary 2022-08-12 17:53:11

Re: 3272 And why do you think mankind dosen't listen to the scientist's, maybe it is because they don't have all the answers.  I wonder where robotics will take us, Amazon cutting 1,000,000 jobs, very few tellers and cashiers.  Were doomed, I have to water my flowers and grass daily, can't go out in the sun, the world's water sources are drying up.  Okay I am exaggerating but you get my point. One more thing sending the worlds biggest and largest telescope into space to send back pretty pictures, this is science?

... ..Reply.. Forum 348 gary 2022-08-12 17:43:18

Probably because he was also all these other things, a French Jesuit priest, scientist, paleontologist, theologian, philosopher and teacher. He was Darwinian in outlook and the author of several influential theological and philosophical books. He took part in the discovery of Peking Man.   A Darwin man like you and Lou. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 347 Chad 2022-08-12 15:54:11

Pierre Teilhard de Chardin  was a brilliant Jesuit schollar. Gary, how do you see him fitting in?

... ..Reply.. Forum 346 Lou 2022-08-12 15:34:43

What you are saying is true of course but gas guzzlers and drilling for oil are still promoted instead of using science and technology to try and fix the mess they got us into.
I wonder what the world would be like if the industrial revolution had not happened especially the assembly line.

... ..Reply.. Forum 345 Chad 2022-08-12 14:13:26

The idea Bob was getting at is that we need to be updating our thinking and beliefs when it is necessary to do so. When the evidence warrants it. Knowledge is neutral. It is how knowledge is applied that is important. Turning our back on knowledge and learning is not the answer to exploitation, injustice, and abuse by the powerful, Jesus probably knew the Law better than those who administered it. I have to remember that science and technology are allowing me to send you this post. Just before last Christmas, s&t saved my life. Science and technology are not everything but to leave them out of the equation may be foolhardy.

... ..Reply.. Forum 344 Lou 2022-08-12 12:13:46

Listening to the news should bring home to you what looking at the world the scientific and technological way has done for us including how sound, scientifically and technologically sound monoculture has done to Madagascar and countless other ecologies.
Gary, you should quote something that Pierre Teilhard de Chardin has that would fit in with these discussions.

... ..Reply.. Forum 343 gary 2022-08-12 09:55:34

Pierre Teilhard de Chardin--Another guy who might fit in with these discussions.

... ..Reply.. Forum 342 Lou 2022-08-12 09:38:06

While it is true that we don't see things as they really are seeing things in the scientific and technological way doesn't help our survival on the contrary it led us to the environmental crisis we are in.
The farmer sees the sun rise in the east and the seasons unfold and they do and that is all he needs to know. 
His preparation for his future party is trying to fix things we wouldn't need to fix if it weren't for Science, Technology, and Consumerism( all capitalization intentional and meaningful ).

... ..Reply.. Forum 341 Chad 2022-08-11 19:19:14

I agree with the Dalai Lama. The past is spilled milk we can only take action today to try to make a better world. Bob McDonald of CBC's Quirks and Quarks has an interesting perspective on this subject. Below is his Tedx presentation from Victoria BC.



... ..Reply.. Forum 340 Chad 2022-08-11 14:21:17

If we believe that God is omnipresent then God is in our corner and in everyone else's corner. How we deal with others is important. Jesus was very clear about that. You are right Lou, our preconceived beliefs and perceptions set the tone for how we perceive new experiences. 2 shoe salesmen go to a country to assess whether their company should invest money in that market. The first salesman sends his company a report. It reads, The situation is hopeless no one in this country wears shoes. The second salesman's report reads This is a glorious opportunity no one in this country wears shoes. It's our choice. We can look for opportunities to shed light and goodwill toward others. Conversely, we can stay secluded in our own shadow of darkness and negativity.  Jesus has made some suggestions about this.

... ..Reply.. Forum 339 Lou 2022-08-11 10:53:22

God is always in our corner. Faith is knowing that. Our ignorance prevents us from knowing that.

50% doesn't mean anything. The question is whether your glass is half full(optimists see what's good about a situation) or half empty(pessimists see problems and wrongdoings). 

... ..Reply.. Forum 338 Chad 2022-08-11 10:43:53

I would prefer to think that you feel you are part of God's creation and not separate from it. Your concerns are based on your perceptions which are eternal and uniquely yours. You barely know yourself. You can't possibly know how others perceive things. Are you really prepared to or even interested in the concerns of others? That takes time, effort, and sincere dialogue to understand someone else. Are you ready and willing to change your false impressions and perceptions? Why should anyone be interested in your concerns? You are just one of a multitude that has their own ideas and worldview. We should challenge our assumptions and perceptions, especially those that involve others that are made quickly with very little substance. Otherwise, we will be living in a fantasy world based on mostly false and baseless assumptions. Find out don't guess.

Lambeth is a 10-year get-together of the clergy of the highest order. They may address bothersome issues for the people with a positive action plan for going forward. Let's hope so.

At any rate, I hope you and Gail are in good health are having a great summer.

... ..Reply.. Forum 337 Chad 2022-08-10 10:06:24

Lou, I hope I am wrong. At any rate, it is the people in the parishes at ground level that are the most important. That was part of the Archbishop's message. There are 5 components of ministry he has emphasized (tell, teach, tend, transform, tressure). What I think is missing is to listen, learn, and be open to change. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 336 Lou 2022-08-09 15:28:17

I like to hold on to a more positive view. Your glass seems to be 3/4 empty mine 69% full.

... ..Reply.. Forum 335 Chad 2022-08-09 14:56:22

Are we the lion? = Are we the problem or at least part of the problem humanity is facing? What do we expect from the clergy with all these lions roaming about? Did I hear a call to action or was I just imagining it? The problems today can not be solved or even addressed by the church with its current thinking and leadership. The church has withdrawn to navel-gazing and internal strife. The Christian message is as valid as it ever was, however, the church dropped the ball eons ago. If he is lucky Rev. Welby will still have a unified church in name if not in spirit after Lambeth. The Anglican church as a global institution has become irrelevant for a number of reasons. We now celebrate our apologies as a positive outcome and a feather in their cap. These are my thoughts very loosely based on Archbishop Welby's presentation. . Thanks for bringing Lambeth to my attention.

I remember Andy being very frightened of Satan He felt his presence around and behind each corner. Gary has taken Peter's message to heart. He sees evil everywhere.


... ..Reply.. Forum 334 Lou 2022-08-09 13:47:25

I listened to Keynote Address 1 to make sure I had not missed anything and made the following notes:

  • he wants to make his audience filled with love for God and hungry for God
  • Jesus came to save the whole world
  • he mentioned several ways that Peter's lion stalk the people of God, culture being the worse
  • the church needs to switch from being inward-looking to engaging with the world
  • the church must inject ethics into science, technology, and economics
  • the need for a Global Communion Network on Science and Technology


... ..Reply.. Forum 333 Lou 2022-08-09 13:29:43

If your post is a response to Quote 2406, as it should be, this applies: 1Pe 5: Be sober and alert. Your enemy the devil, like a roaring lion, is on the prowl looking for someone to devour.
I wonder what you mean by "Are we the lion?".  The rest of your post doesn't appear to have to do with archbishop Welby's talk either.

... ..Reply.. Forum 332 Chad 2022-08-09 09:19:52

Are we the lion? Can we, in all honesty, see ourselves as objective observers? Isn't our perceptions at least part of the problem? There is only one reality. We can't change it. We can only change ourselves and our perceptions of it. We can not expect things to change for the better if we are unable, because of the artificial restraints and excuses that we use to inhibit us, to make the necessary changes to truly understand and address the problems. If you firmly believe the problem is too difficult to solve then you shouldn't be surprised that the problem still exists.

... ..Reply.. Forum 331 Lou 2022-08-09 08:07:49

... ..Reply.. Forum 330 Lou 2022-08-08 14:50:40

Keynote Address 1: The Archbishop of Canterbury


... ..Reply.. Forum 329 Lou 2022-08-08 11:27:27

Keynote Address 3: The Archbishop of Canterbury


... ..Reply.. Forum 328 Lou 2022-08-06 09:02:56

Keynote Address 2: The Archbishop of Canterbury

... ..Reply.. Forum 327 Lou 2022-08-04 08:16:37



... ..Reply.. Forum 326 Lou 2022-07-25 16:07:10

If you mean "The Green Earth" it is airing on PBS.

Even if we are past the point of no return the more reasons to stop making it worse.

... ..Reply.. Forum 325 Gary 2022-07-25 14:14:32

Re: 2393 ahd 2398. According to Chad we are no more superior or important than the animals so how could we ever subdue the earth. The earth was perfect and orderly until sin entered in, according to the Bible.  Should your last sentence read, "if we had not ignored."  I agree anyway.

John and I have been discussing this topic and we both think we are probably past the poin of no return. I think David Attenborugh's show is on this week?

... ..Reply.. Forum 324 Lou 2022-07-22 10:24:41

The environmental crisis is forcing us to acknowledge that we must recognize that we are part of nature and that we need to be its servant instead of its abuser.
If we had ignored the biblical command to subdue the Earth we would not be in the mess we're in.

... ..Reply.. Forum 323 Gary 2022-07-21 14:16:39

You can have the last word.;-)

... ..Reply.. Forum 322 Chad 2022-07-21 10:11:20

:-) I think you got what you expected. I didn't want to disappoint you. Seriously, as a dear friend, I suggest that you would benefit intellectually if you improve your science literacy. We could have a decent discussion on these matters if nothing else. You could express yourself more eloquently. One primitive inarticulate grunt to respond doesn't tell me much. Your fear and ignorance of science are not helping you or anyone else spiritually. Science is not what you think it is evolution is not what you think it is. On the other hand, the article you presented shows that you are trying. I appreciate that. I find it encouraging.

At any rate, I'm off to the cottage. Give it some thought and if you are up to it we can talk about it when I get back. Send my regards to Gail. ;-)

... ..Reply.. Forum 321 Gary 2022-07-21 09:25:14


... ..Reply.. Forum 320 Chad 2022-07-20 23:43:53

That isn't how things work, Gary. Who told you we are superior and much more important than the animals. We are a mammal. We are a hominid. You may have heard the term, Homo Sapien. That's what we are called in scientific terms. Who told you differently? Our superior attitude is just human bravado based on our self-centered focus. There is no justification for it. There is no hierarchy. We are not as independent and detached as you think we are. We are totally reliant on other species for our survival. Religion has nothing to do with it.

... ..Reply.. Forum 319 Chad 2022-07-20 20:46:33

Lou, I interpreted the lefthand side of the diagram as everything is God. We agree on that.

... ..Reply.. Forum 318 Gary 2022-07-20 17:11:21

re 2387 We are superior and much more important than the animals. Although some of the people I know are very thick skulled and don't see the difference.  Thanks for letting me have the last word on this one..

... ..Reply.. Forum 317 Chad 2022-07-20 09:14:34

re 3282 That information supports what scientists have suspected for some time. One day they may find the common ancestor of all the Great Apes. That includes us, Gary. Scientists suspect it could be a type of lemur and certainly not a monkey. America has nothing to with it. That is the center of the Universe for the author of the piece. We are only a small link in a very long evolutionary process. Some of us have an illusion of being important, detached, and superior to it all. In actual fact, we are just one species in the earth's biomass and nothing more. ;-)

... ..Reply.. Forum 316 Chad 2022-07-19 14:05:17

re 3527 Re Rev. Curry's remarks: Nobody in that conference will say different. I doubt anyone in that room will drop their politics. They don't realize they are at war. Wishful thinking and prayer will not reverse the course that has been plotted against them, and us BTW. He was too kind and reserved, He wanted to be more forceful but he realizes that the intellectual elite has thin skin and is self-centered. They don't get it. They want to hide. They don't want to make waves or put their life on the line. They didn't go to a seminary school for the purpose of starting a resistance movement for non-partisan reasoning following Christ's non-violent style. Rev. Curry, being a visible minority, sees it plainly. He understands what the unfriendly forces at hand are capable of. The powers behind this want to cause derision and confusion. They want to keep everyone at odds with each other. They want total power and they will do anything to get it. We have seen this before. We want to pretend that it is different. God Bless Rev. Curry.

... ..Reply.. Forum 315 Chad 2022-07-18 21:51:29

Gary, you have some notions of evolution that are very wrong. I wonder if you have similar false notions about Christianity? You have been fed a banquet of BS somewhere along the line. None of that is important. You are a kind and caring gentleman, that is what is important.   

... ..Reply.. Forum 314 Lou 2022-07-18 09:19:46

Thank you for the info. Have you sent for a DNA test to know for sure? 

The fact that humans have migrated from Asia to the Americas has absolutely nothing to do with evolution and the fact that you bring monkeys into this means that you misunderstand evolution. Why do you keep bringing up evolution? 
No scientist "gets around to linking us humans to apes" only Christians who want to discredit evolution would say such a thing.
Humans are linked to everything else but not in the way that is implied by that statement.

Grammarly is an extension to browsers to help check and correct spelling and grammar. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 313 Gary 2022-07-17 16:16:15

The Abenaki (Abenaki: Wαpánahki) are an Indigenous peoples of the Northeastern Woodlands of Canada and the United States. They are an Algonquian-speaking people and part of the Wabanaki Confederacy. The Eastern Abenaki language was predominantly spoken in Maine, while the Western Abenaki language was spoken in Quebec, Vermont, and New Hampshire.    I probably have very little Indian blood in me but my dad said he had ancester's from this tribe.   As for monkey's these scientist's usually get around to linking us humans to apes.   Whats a Grammaly?

... ..Reply.. Forum 312 Lou 2022-07-15 13:50:51

It is interesting but what is more interesting is the suggestion that you have American Indian ancestry, do you? Another point of interest is why you mention monkeys.

Is there any reason you don't use Grammaly?

... ..Reply.. Forum 311 Gary 2022-07-15 12:30:06

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/technology/a-strange-fossil-in-south-china-reveals-an-intriguing-link-with-the-first-americans/ar-AAZB0zH?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=b423eda38f804a5fc6ecb2f500364718   I found this very interesting and no mention of monkey's. Maybe I am related.

... ..Reply.. Forum 310 Lou 2022-07-13 13:49:48

You are right, nobody's listening. Cutting down the Amazonian rainforest to feed the world with beef products is still a source of income for Brazil. We still want the price of gas to be lowered and the oil industry to be subsidized. We are quick to blame governments and companies but as individuals, what are we prepared to do without for the environment? 

... ..Reply.. Forum 309 Gary 2022-07-13 10:01:57

I would like to be more positive but look at the rain forests, nobody's listening?

... ..Reply.. Forum 308 Lou 2022-07-12 11:06:31

I go for a more positive view. We managed to slow down population growth avert the disastrous overpopulation that was predicted to happen long before the year 2000. We also managed to fix the hole in the ozone layer. We caused this environmental problem so we can fix it if we can find the political will. But before that can happen we must curb our consumerism tendencies. We must learn to consume only what we need, to live in harmony with nature instead of trying to subdue it. 

Californians are still watering their lawns!

... ..Reply.. Forum 307 Gary 2022-07-12 09:32:36

Trailer looks interesting although I think it is too late to fix the earth.  Eight billion people by November.  Maybe he is going to suggest a virus much worse than Covid could wipe out 1/3 of the population, how else can we control the population?  I think I have seen something like this in the Bible.  Anyway I will probably watch it. ps: check out the latest on Lake Mead.

... ..Reply.. Forum 306 Lou 2022-07-11 17:27:26

Sir David Attenborough warns that humans ‘have overrun the world’ in new trailer

... ..Reply.. Forum 305 Lou 2022-07-11 15:50:34

The Episcopal Church House of Bishops addressed many threats to democracy

... ..Reply.. Forum 304 Gary 2022-07-11 11:38:16

Hers, lets move on.

... ..Reply.. Forum 303 Lou 2022-07-11 08:04:44

Gary, I do not understand how you can interpret my statement in 2370 as blaming other people for their own problems! 
I am asking is the problem hers or yours and why is it brought to our attention?

... ..Reply.. Forum 302 Gary 2022-07-10 21:22:17

Lou in 2370

... ..Reply.. Forum 301 Lou 2022-07-10 19:28:19

Gary, where did I write anything that gave you the impression that I am " too quick to blame other people for their own problems.  "?

... ..Reply.. Forum 300 Gary 2022-07-10 11:08:27

Now re: 2370 My daughter's problem started with depression and moved onto laziness and obesity. Granddaughter following her mom's example. If she doesn't think she has a problem,  that is a problem. Lou you are too quick to blame other people for their own probems. People have to learn you want to eat, you work?  2 Thessalonians 3:10-12 "For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule; "The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat..."  

... ..Reply.. Forum 299 Gary 2022-07-10 10:51:38

First going back to 2368-2369. The powerful picture of Jesus knocking at the door reminds me of two occasions where Jesus went to to eat with sinners at their house and they became new disciples. Can't become a disciple unless you open the door, so many people are deaf and can't hear the knock.

... ..Reply.. Forum 298 Lou 2022-07-10 08:04:02

Gary, you mentioned your daughter, so tell us the nature of the rut that she's in. I suspect that she doesn't think she has a problem instead it's you who has a problem with her lifestyle.

... ..Reply.. Forum 297 Gary 2022-07-09 21:21:46

Chad you do know it was Lou who pasted the picture of Jesus knocking?  I have a different understanding than you about what it mean to not open the door when Jesus calls.  Just look around at the world today . Just gave my daughter a tract today entitled. More Than a Carpenter,(Josh McDowell).  I think accepting Jesus would be a good start in getting her out of a serious rut from lifestyle choices. I think I would call it complete surrender.  I know the picture is not reallistic but it gets the point accross that He is here to help.

... ..Reply.. Forum 296 Chad 2022-07-09 10:57:10

re 2366 My guess is that Christ knocked at your door and you answered the door. What about those other people who didn't answer the door. I don't think Christ would have shunned them, do you? Christ said that not everyone hears the word.  Some of the people who open the door will not hear or heed his teaching or understand his ministry. Christ will forgive them and will always love them.

I think the picture and quote you gave us are revealing. We allow in our own preconceived version of who we think Christ is, what his message is, and even what he should look like.  I think what you are saying is to receive Christ as you can. We will likely see a different picture. It can be the start of a long-term relationship. If we are open to his guidance we could live in a more loving and uplifting manner. It is what the world needs now. It is a nice sentiment. Thanks, Gary.

... ..Reply.. Forum 295 Gary 2022-07-03 16:10:30

Unlock the door so that I can come in.  So few people unlock the door.

... ..Reply.. Forum 294 Lou 2022-07-03 09:44:09

... ..Reply.. Forum 293 Chad 2022-07-01 13:17:48


One wonders how anyone can be certain of anything. Question absolutely everything especially those things that you feel you shouldn't or can't. Nothing is sacred it's all up for grabs. After thorough scrutiny, some things will; make more sense than others. Tentatively use those ideas as your base. That is a lot of work but very worthwhile. That is the only way we can critique our false worldviews. Even then we will come up short. It is extremely hard to unlearn misconceptions we have learned and beliefs we have developed. It is wise to remember that we only have enough wherewithal to recreate our genes. Does this sound wrong? Why? Convince me I am wrong.

... ..Reply.. Forum 292 Chad 2022-07-01 00:50:03

I follow a blog dedicated mostly to Allen Ginsberg but all the Beats and all the periphery players get some mention including Merton. Most are poets and writers. What I find fascinating is that they predicted today's predicaments. They were writing in the 1950s and 60s. They were proclaiming the fall of America. Huxley, Orwell, Watts, and others also had a fairly clear perception of things to come. Yeah, the status of Christianity is difficult to define. The Christians of today seem to be all over the map. I don't know who or what they follow in a lot of cases. I agree if we are up to the task of following Christ's teaching and example, we will better people for it.

... ..Reply.. Forum 291 Gary 2022-06-30 17:06:29

Re:2360 There was a certain % that followed Christ in His day, there will be a certain % follow Christ today.  I don't get too concerned. The message is clear, either follow Him, or follow the prince of this world. Today in Merton's reading from 1963 he says, "Our society is gravely ill."  Wonder what he would think of the world today?

Happy Canada Day

... ..Reply.. Forum 290 Chad 2022-06-30 14:58:34

Gary is right we can talk about love all we want but do we really practice what we preach. We can post pictures and bumper sticker slogans, But as Gary suggests, isn't that just decorating the walls. With a computer it is effortless. I believe Gary wants to see concrete action demonstrated. What he is saying is that we are all talk and no action. I think that is a fair criticism, don't you? I think his bluntness can seem shallow and a turn-off at times. His criticism might not be completely true but maybe true enough. Don't get me wrong bumper sticker love is meant to be positive and is a reminder to do the right thing in a loving way when given the opportunity. I think it helps in keeping a positive attitude and a willingness to assist our fellow humans and the planet. It helps counter the negativity that is so prevalent around us.

... ..Reply.. Forum 289 Lou 2022-06-30 14:13:15

... ..Reply.. Forum 288 Chad 2022-06-30 12:10:07

Do you ever wonder why so many are disenchanted with Christianity and religion in general? It doesn't matter, does it? Nietzsche was right. I now get what he was saying. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 287 Chad 2022-06-30 10:14:59

What I am saying is there are unlimited ways to contemplate spirituality in a post-Christian society. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 286 Gary 2022-06-30 06:34:40

Busy day today but will check in later.

... ..Reply.. Forum 285 Chad 2022-06-29 23:30:03

I'm going to take a risk. I feel we live in a post-Christian world. We must leave the church doctrine and dogma. We must state the truth about those things that destroyed most of the Biblical myth. God is the verb to create, to live to the fullest, and love with abandonment. God is not a noun to be defined and controlled. No other details or rules are necessary. Follow Christ's example, it is as simple as that.

... ..Reply.. Forum 284 Chad 2022-06-29 18:31:40

What I had in mind was to take one of the quotes and see how it pertains to the situation in the NT. There certainly are enough quotes to choose from. Lou wants to make sure I'm not pressuring you, Gary.  Maybe Lou could choose a quote to consider. We can just drop it as a bad idea. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 283 Gary 2022-06-29 15:55:26

Most think it is an allegory, thanks for the last word, although proabably in the wrong spot?

... ..Reply.. Forum 282 Gary 2022-06-29 15:52:13

re:  2353, just got that from Google

... ..Reply.. Forum 281 Gary 2022-06-29 15:51:22

He quoted the Old Testament 78 times, the Pentateuch alone 26 times. He quoted from Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Psalms, Proverbs, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Amos, Jonah, Micah, and Malachi. He referred to the Old Testament as “The Scriptures,” “the word of God,” and “the wisdom of God.”

Too many to list but interesting, I remember He talked about Jonah as if it was historical, not a metaphor?

... ..Reply.. Forum 280 Chad 2022-06-29 10:58:03

Thank you for your comment, Lou. You are right Gary does not have to supply an example. There is no need for it. It was just a suggestion. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 279 Lou 2022-06-29 09:51:52

I think that Gary means that Jesus often makes reference to the OT in support of what he is saying and doing. Why would there be a need to point to any one example! 

... ..Reply.. Forum 278 Chad 2022-06-29 08:52:48

I guess we could look at what he was quoting and see appreciate the connection. Gary, can you give us an example of what you are referring to?

... ..Reply.. Forum 277 Chad 2022-06-29 08:41:44

Yep, now what?

... ..Reply.. Forum 276 Lou 2022-06-29 07:34:14

Gary has it right.

... ..Reply.. Forum 275 Chad 2022-06-29 06:28:20

Rolf Jacobson's sermon from last Sunday explains the use of language in the Bible and why it often differs from ordinary prose. He critiques Psalm 30 with this in mind. Here is an excerpt that was taken from the introduction. This sermon may help us to understand the use of miracles in the Bible.

To communicate God’s character and God’s agency, divine salvation, and spiritual healing, at times the Bible needs to speak in parables or prophetic visions, or poetry. Because where prose describes, poetry evokes.” Listen as Jacobson explains how Psalm 30 “offers just such evocative proclamations of divine salvation.”



... ..Reply.. Forum 274 Chad 2022-06-29 00:32:43

As I see it, the miracles are there for a purpose beyond being supernatural events. The miracle is meant to capture the attention of the reader/listener to some important lesson or observance. They can cause the opposite effect of distracting the reader/listener to unimportant details that become contentious issues that spawn endless debates.

... ..Reply.. Forum 273 Chad 2022-06-29 00:01:05

That makes sense Gary. After all, Jesus was a Jew, and the only scripture available to him was the OT. The Gospel and NT writers often referenced the OT. The OT prophesized Christ. The NT was the fulfillment of the OT. There are other connections as well. The good healthy Christian walk may need some explanation. I don't think I have heard that terminology before. I think the word healthy is throwing me a bit. I would be tempted to edit that out.  

... ..Reply.. Forum 272 Chad 2022-06-28 21:50:14

The wedding Cana is a good example. People end up arguing about the alcohol content of the wine. That is very important to some. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 271 Chad 2022-06-28 19:26:14

Yeah, you are right, Lou. We read the Bible as we are not as it is. No one wants their perceptions changed or challenged. We will only grasp what reinforces our own point of view. However, what I just said is tentative. There are others that would say it better.

... ..Reply.. Forum 270 Gary 2022-06-28 15:16:17

Jesus often quoted Bible verses from the OT as he fed and healed people  I think both are important in a good healthy Christian walk.

... ..Reply.. Forum 269 Lou 2022-06-28 15:06:15

I was not aware that we were talking about having a discussion. What the quote and the sermon are about is how we receive what we read and, assuming it is for edification the way we read it makes a difference. 

That is what I have prepared from the NIV and suggest reading only the headers to get refreshed on the drift of the Gospel. Nobody calls for either acceptance or discussion.

What the posts were about is getting bogged down in the details of The Wedding at Cana, for example, and failing to get what it is supposed to mean to us by neglecting to keep in mind how it related to what the Gospels are trying to tell us which we will never get if we are having historical or analytical bible studies.

... ..Reply.. Forum 268 Chad 2022-06-28 14:07:34

I idea which I have given up. Was to demonstrate how difficult it might be to get under the skin of the Biblical writer. Forget that it is too difficult. Your method is doable. What Gospel or writing are you suggesting. That method has been decided and prepared for us. Follow the icons on the front page. A list of major events is spelled out. No thinking is required. Acceptance of what is written is a requirement, not an option. When you get down to it there is nothing to discuss.

... ..Reply.. Forum 267 Lou 2022-06-28 08:02:15

That idea is exactly the opposite of what was proposed earlier. It is a suggestion to concentrate on the tree at the expanse of the forest.
I suggest reading the whole gospel but only the headings as provided on the front page of the website to get a holistic view and then, perhaps, select perhaps and read a passage that stood out.


... ..Reply.. Forum 266 Chad 2022-06-28 01:26:03

Gary might not be with us. I starting to have doubts about this. Seasoned Biblical scholars debate wording and meaning all the time. It is way too difficult an undertaking. Forget my dumb idea.

... ..Reply.. Forum 265 Chad 2022-06-27 18:57:02

I thought of this crazy idea so pick a verse or passage and I'll try my luck. Before you criticize you have to submit your version of the same passage. In that way, we will have 3 different versions to compare. Gary what verse or passage would you like us to try?

... ..Reply.. Forum 264 Chad 2022-06-27 18:02:13

It is a modern wonder that the Bible can be read on a screen. Not only that with multiple versions to view almost instantly. Also added commentary and concordance. However, most of us were not trained in how to read and compose at a similar level that the Biblical writers enjoyed. So we get bogged down because don't have the technical skills or the ability to express ourselves in a similar manner. Most of us are not writers in that sense. Take a passage, any passage, and try to express it in your own words to capture exactly what was intended by the Biblical writer. This is a good exercise in humility if nothing else. If you try this tell us how you found this simple exercise. What if any were the problems you encountered. Better still share the passage and your attempt at capturing the exact essence of the verse. We should all do this so we can compare our results.

... ..Reply.. Forum 263 Lou 2022-06-27 10:25:50

Gary, responding to a post by telling us what it should read intending to convey an uncalled-for hint is not constructive.

An answer to Quote 2341 should have been whether you believe that to ignore it or to tell us whether you believe that we should or should not keep in mind the holistic message of the Bible when reading it, in other words, should we or should we not keep in mind the context, what the whole of the Bible is about.

... ..Reply.. Forum 262 Chad 2022-06-24 12:55:06

... ..Reply.. Forum 261 Chad 2022-06-24 11:56:50

... ..Reply.. Forum 260 Lou 2022-06-24 07:42:33

It's honest for you to admit that you get bogged down when you read the Bible and even our posts in this forum. It would help if you tried to do better and actually read what is written.

... ..Reply.. Forum 259 Gary 2022-06-23 16:25:28

Lou, it should read, when reading the Bible I get bogged down with the stories and fail to get what I am suppused to learn.

... ..Reply.. Forum 258 Lou 2022-06-23 08:16:48

... ..Reply.. Forum 257 Lou 2022-06-22 14:04:08

When reading the Bible we get bogged down with the stories and fail to get what we are supposed to learn.

... ..Reply.. Forum 256 Lou 2022-06-22 09:45:49

Sometimes the light is blocked by the trees so we can't see the forest for the trees. Rev. Dr. Joy J. Moore brought that up for me in her sermon for Sunday. We get bogged down with the stories and fail to get what we are supposed to learn.

... ..Reply.. Forum 255 Lou 2022-06-21 09:12:36

 It is only when there is lack of light that we see things in the wrong way. How like a little cloud is worldly grandeur blown away. We can never be self-sufficing. But when we learn a higher dependence there is no more anguish of mind, no more rebellion. To be able to see our connection with every condition of life is to see with a new eye — the spiritual eye. Patience, endurance, courage — these come when that eye opens. Then we can turn all our forces Godward. For one who sees with the spiritual eye, there are no evil forces; it is we who create evil by the misdirection of our energies.

That quote is very much in sync with the Perennial Philosophy. Our ignorance is what keeps us from seeing God in everyone and everything.
All scriptures, including the sciences, are attempts at the Truth that are unfortunately more hindrances than help.

... ..Reply.. Forum 254 Chad 2022-06-20 22:30:16

Chris Kratzer

rdoeSsnopt1g  5ifMfa80mfte6a48h10ttsd08yll :mYA1r4ea3  · 

Here’s a message you probably won’t hear at church this morning--I’m sorry, I just can’t reach you.

Trust me, I so wish that I could.

I get it. I truly do. You’re an Evangelical. White, conversative, and perhaps still a Trump supporter. I’ve been who you are, I was a conservative Evangelical pastor for 22 years. So, I understand completely. I’ve seen, heard, and lived it all.

But now that I’ve walked away from it, every bit of it, I guess I wonder why you haven’t too.

When I was entrenched in that system of faith, no one could pull me away. Not reason, not tragedy. Not family, friends, or even truth. I was a captive, totally submitted to the conservative Evangelical Borg. Yet, all by choice, if I’m honest.

You think I’ve lost my mind. That I’ve fallen away. To you, I’m now an enemy of sorts, a project to turn back to your beliefs and ways.

You ask, “what happened to you?” You quote the Bible at me. You hold the flames of eternal torture over my head. Silent treatments here, silent treatments there. You condemn to hell nearly everything about me, perhaps even praying for my demise. Apart from a complete return to your acceptance and approval, it seems that in your mind, there is nearly nothing worthy about me. I’m lost. A heretic. A child of the devil. A “woke,” “baby killing” reprobate.

No matter what I say, no matter how I feel. No matter the Bible verses I point to, no matter the changes in my heart that have set me free. No matter the hurt you cause, the people you isolate. No matter the suffering you create, the destruction you rationalize. No matter the science, history, or facts. No matter my patience, no matter my pleading. No matter the tears in my eyes, nor the pain in my face. Nothing seems to get through. I'm not searching for perfection, I'm just searching for some humanity.

Yet, like the orange that can't be pulled from the tree, no matter the force, because it isn’t ripe, I can’t reach you, and to keep on trying only breaks me and emboldens you. Lord knows, I'd do anything.

So, I’m standing with the ones you reject. I’m extending the love you refuse to give. I’m embracing the God that frustrates and offends you. I’m giving voice to the ones you oppress. I’m chasing the evils of your beliefs out of the shadows.

I’m finally breathing for the first time. I’m hearing the Jesus within me for the first time. I’ve tasted and seen that the Lord is thoroughly good: non-violent, inclusive, affirming, equality bringing, and unconditionally loving. I’m proclaiming good news to the poor, freedom for the imprisoned, and Light in the midst of darkness. For me, God is All and in all, inseparably and irrevocably. The Gospel in purest form. The earth is my sanctuary, humanity is my community, and love is my worship. And, that’s all I need to see, live, and believe. Finally, I’m alive and being me.

So, if I seem distant, it’s because I’m stewarding the Light within me. If I offend you, it’s because I am finally speaking. If I don’t participate in your attempts to change me, it’s because I’m at peace with who I am, and I’m finally realizing Jesus is too, and always has been.

I’m sorry, I just can’t reach you. Only an honesty from within yourself, ever can. And that is what I pray.


Grace is brave. Be brave.


... ..Reply.. Forum 253 Chad 2022-06-20 14:04:21

Good points Lou.

... ..Reply.. Forum 252 Lou 2022-06-20 09:26:15

 Never do anything that will destroy another’s faith. Even the simplest faith leads Godward.

Everyone has to be allowed and even encouraged to read scripture and worship the way they grew into.

... ..Reply.. Forum 251 Chad 2022-06-18 10:53:52

He said he would include the OT writings when they were relevant to a particular passage.  Yeah, you are right Lou, there are so many ways of approaching it. I won't make any commentary as it can offend others. You are good to go. I might add, that it is not my intention to offend anyone. Thanks for putting me straight, Lou. 


... ..Reply.. Forum 250 Lou 2022-06-18 08:14:37

We should determine for ourselves and share with others our reason for reading the Bible. I wonder if Gary is aware of his reasons for his decision to read the complete Bible and then trim it down to only the New Testament. Would he share it with us? The same applies to us, of course.

... ..Reply.. Forum 249 Chad 2022-06-17 19:28:46

I guess what I should have said before I started was let's share some perspectives on this passage. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 248 Chad 2022-06-17 17:18:40

It is just one way of looking at it. It is admittedly an incomplete picture.  I expected you and Gary to offer different perceptions and likely better ways of looking at it. Don't worry about what I have written especially if you feel it is inadequate. Write a better commentary so we can learn something.

... ..Reply.. Forum 247 Lou 2022-06-17 16:28:33

Chad, That kind of Bible analysis is sure to have Gary stay away and I don't blame him. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 246 Chad 2022-06-17 15:34:51

Looking at Acts 3 we can quite quickly realize that the Passage is focused on very specific people in a very different time and place. Yet we can understand the intention of the writer and what he was trying to accomplish. It is interesting the specific detail that is included and what remains vague. Does the man have a name? There are political overtones. Peter John and the cured man, also the addition of OT references are used in giving authenticity to his rhetoric. We know this story was repeated for its political purposes and not for its veracity. Just my take. How do you see it? 

... ..Reply.. Forum 245 Lou 2022-06-17 09:07:43

NT in a year is available on the front page of the website. The daily installment takes a few minutes to read. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 244 Gary 2022-06-17 08:51:12

re 3222 I think I have to go at my own pace, haven't even got started yet. Could be more of a fall project.

... ..Reply.. Forum 243 Chad 2022-06-16 15:01:44

re: post 3224 The Bible Gateway, Bible in a Year site has passages every day that are chewable bits. Today's passage from Acts draws heavily on the OT writings. It also has some commentary and additional resources to study the passage in more detail. The only potential problem I see with this approach is that it might get one lost in trees when looking for the forest. That is to say, getting entangled in detail and missing the message.

... ..Reply.. Forum 242 Chad 2022-06-16 14:44:33

Re 3222 I think you are wise to change course. The new approach is still difficult but doable in a more realistic time frame. What do you think of Lou's idea?

... ..Reply.. Forum 241 Chad 2022-06-16 14:22:00

Re 2334. Lou, I feel the video is informative beyond just a succinct way of describing science. There is far more to offer than a possible way to reach Mike. In a lot of ways, it reflects the way I see things as well. On the other hand, I understand that you don't want to waste your time. I'm sorry for the inconvenience. 

Re 2335 I think the poster is right on. We must lower our guard to be able to share. It is far better to understand than to be understood. What we have to offer is less important than what we receive. It is a matter of hearing and trying to understand others that are seriously attempting to communicate with us. It is a matter of finding ways of sharing contemplating and discussing our varied perspectives. There is no reason to take a stand. We just need to find ways to love the other.

... ..Reply.. Forum 240 Gary 2022-06-16 11:57:13

re: 3220  Can't save the world if you don't preach on sin and salvation. Many preachers acquaint hell as an eternal separation from God.  Although Jesus does mention hell in Matthew and other places as a warnig not to disobey the Father.

... ..Reply.. Forum 239 Gary 2022-06-16 11:50:29

re:3195 Changed my approach, will read through the NT and will only go back to the OT if it is quoted or if there are links to OT Bible verses uinderneath some NT verses. This doesn't mean the OT is not important, in many cases it leads us directly into the NT.

... ..Reply.. Forum 238 Lou 2022-06-15 19:10:40

It's not needed so there's no sense wasting the hour or so in my case and it's not too likely that anything can correct Mike's misunderstanding of how science works and how it doesn't work.

... ..Reply.. Forum 237 Chad 2022-06-15 12:23:04

Marcelo Gleiser is a particle physicist and philosopher. He has written a book about human limitations and the limitations of science and knowledge. He clearly explains how science works and how it doesn't work. I'm wondering if Gary or Michael has enough basic knowledge to understand what Marcelo is saying. I'm 100% in agreement with how he perceives things based on his layman's explanations.

As an aside Perennial Philosophy belongs to the Philosophical and Religious realm. Science, on the other hand, is limited to the scientific method involving speculation about how things work, experiments, detection, and measurement.  Therefore is not a useful tool for investigating Religious matters except when religious spokespeople make claims that contradict scientific knowledge.


... ..Reply.. Forum 236 Lou 2022-06-15 08:49:59

The Abrahamic religions are big on sex, as evidenced by circumcision, sin, and hell.
Their idea of salvation is getting to the promised land, heaven after death for Christians and Muslims instead of enlightenment,(union with God).

... ..Reply.. Forum 235 Chad 2022-06-14 23:31:08

Matt 28:16-20The Great Commission

16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Some of the popular preachers are big on Hell and Salvation and sin. They downplay or conveniently forget that Jesus was a great teacher. Adherence to his teachings can save the world.

... ..Reply.. Forum 234 Lou 2022-06-14 08:12:36

... ..Reply.. Forum 233 Chad 2022-06-13 15:37:08

What makes a good minister/preacher? Maybe I should say what are the characteristics of a good minister preacher? It might be something to ponder. I imagine we come up with a different set of traits but I also imagine there would be some overlap. Number one on my list would be, an effective communicator. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 232 Chad 2022-06-13 13:23:32

Richard Baxter and the like come from an era of preaching a strict, vengeful, and frightening God. What Frye liked to call the Old Sinker in the Sky God.  Some find that sort of almighty power appealing. Baxter and other fire and brimstone preachers could manage a crowd's emotions and bring their audiences to dizzying heights of excitement. Some people get off on those other sinners being throne to fiery hell forever. Some of us feel that wasn't the way Christ operated and taught. It's a different picture.

Most people are resistant to change. Some are very solid on their footing. If you are like that you will know it would be impossible to change your beliefs no matter what anyone said. That is where you might bring in torture and abuse on those that have different ideas. After all, it would be for their own good, wouldn't it? Kick away, my friend.

... ..Reply.. Forum 231 Lou 2022-06-13 11:31:36

 if they don't listen smack them, I meant to kick the dust off your feet and move on. I did not read anything about smacking from  'kick the dust off your feet ' only to leave them alone and move on. Jesus was not into smacking people around but into helping them instead if they wanted to be helped.

One should only preach what one believes in and should believe what the congregation believes in.

... ..Reply.. Forum 230 Chad 2022-06-13 10:44:49

Gary, I think you should just be who you are. You understand the Bible and Christianity from your unique perspective. There will be some that like how you understand these things. I agree with most of what say.

... ..Reply.. Forum 229 Chad 2022-06-12 18:13:11

I agree with you and Richard Baxter. That is if you are going to preach the Gospels you should know the Gospels. You should also know Christ and his intentions. You need to be like Christ if you are going to represent him. You should also be clear about what you want to accomplish and how you are going to go about doing it. I know of some people that will figuratively kick the dust from their sandals if they meet opposition. They are just playing out a dogmatic cliche in a dramatic fashion. Their drama will be lost on most. Preaching was and is a difficult task. Christ and his apostles all ran into severe opposition. It cost most of them their lives. If you think people will listen to you and buy what you are selling, by all means, have some fun with it. I don't think you will be killed. However, they may not be as appreciative of your particular pitch as you think they should be. You don't have much to lose though, all the heavy lifting has been done by countless others that came before you. On the other hand, you could hand out pamphlets on the street counters. 

Pretend you know nothing of the Bible or Christianity. Would you be able to grasp the Puriton version of redemption, sanctification, and salvation? Just because someone doesn't get the message doesn't necessarily mean they reject it. Christ knew this and he taught that concept in a parable.


... ..Reply.. Forum 228 Gary 2022-06-12 14:15:08

Baxter writes about the responsibilities of being gospel men, of wearing gospel shoes. It clearly extends beyond the pulpit, but it definitely involves the pulpit. “Multitudes,” he writes,

will [actually] not be brought to understand what we say; … when we talk of redemption, sanctification, and salvation, they hear us as if we spoke Greek or Hebrew to them, and under [our] teaching, [they] grow old in … ignorance. …Richard Baxter

I like that "they grow old in ignorance." there is always a large percentage of people lost and just don't want to hear the word.  Probably the same percentage as in Jesus's time.  He still told his disciples to go out and share the good news, if they don't listen smack them, I meant kick the dust off your feet and move on. The lost multitudes.

... ..Reply.. Forum 227 Chad 2022-06-10 13:46:46

One of the reasons I retired from the active pastoral ministry is because for my own integrity I could no longer proclaim things to others I did not believe AND I had no desire to do damage to the faith that was a strength and support to those in my congregation who still held to orthodox faith.

They were and are on a journey just as I have been on a journey and while I did share out of my journey I always sought to respect others and where they were as well.

Bill Haggart retired minister

That is good advice from a thoughtful man

... ..Reply.. Forum 226 Chad 2022-06-09 13:53:30

The Sunday sermon is interesting. It is an odd take on psalm 8. Below are my comments in response to the sermon.


Rev Thomas looks at the expanding Universe through the lens of Hubble both the man and the space telescope and through the lens of Psalm 8. The Psalmist has no idea of the extent of the universe he is contemplating. Even so, he sees a grandeur that is mostly lost on us earthlings. Because the universe is not contained on a human scale it is essentially nonexistent. Unfortunately, most people don't engage or fully appreciate the wonders of creation. It can be overwhelming. More people are content with the Psalm 8 version which is more comprehensible and human-centered. They are much happier with a human-centered universe. Not uncommonly they see a self-centered universe.  The universe is God-centered of course which the Palmist implies. He doesn't see himself as quite the infinitesimal speck in the scheme of things he really is.  He is saying how great thou art. Not really knowing the extent of how great thou art. In his defense, no one knows. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 225 Lou 2022-06-08 18:38:40

‘The reality is one, sages designate it variously’
indicates that whatever religion people profess, they are worshipping the supreme being
in their own way, with faith. God, being omnipresent, responds to the devotee’s prayers,
meditation or worship in his own way. Having this attitude, the devotee regards
whatever he receives in his life as the gift of God, and he is forever happy and

... ..Reply.. Forum 224 Lou 2022-06-08 08:24:54

We need to keep in mind what Howard Zinn said when listening to the news.

... ..Reply.. Forum 223 Chad 2022-06-06 09:39:22

... ..Reply.. Forum 222 Gary 2022-06-06 08:29:39

Forget that Steve Brown Water into Grape Juice, wasn't great. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 221 Chad 2022-06-05 01:21:41

Steve Brown has one of the deepest baritones I have ever heard. That combined with his slow deliberate delivery may make him appealing. He sounds like the Marlborough man would sound like if he ever said something if that makes sense. In other words, he sounds very manly and authoritative.

I'll let Gary give us the site he found interesting. Water to wine is an interesting passage for a number of reasons.

... ..Reply.. Forum 220 Chad 2022-06-04 22:38:26

Peterson's answer to whether he believes in God is interesting. As usual, he manages to bash the Leftists and Marxists which is very typical of his approach. I don't want to get into how bad the extreme left may be. I feel the extreme right is as bad if not worse. Hitler was no sweetheart. Putting that aside, Some points he makes in his talk bring up some interesting ideas that may be worth pursuing or at least considering. I have other criticisms but it might be best if you watch the video and make your own observations.

Does Peterson believe in God?

... ..Reply.. Forum 219 Lou 2022-06-04 08:44:24

Gary, your post "The panel to the right of Peterson's you tube video has a preacher Steve Brown titled "Turning water into wine." He is one of my favorites to listen too." means nothing to us since what you see on the right of the video you are viewing is not the tailored to you. 

Copy the URL and post it if you want us to see it.

... ..Reply.. Forum 218 Chad 2022-06-04 00:19:33

To me, Peterson is a strange duck. He thinks of himself as a scientist and academic. He is also popular with strong social media support and following. He has a strong right-wing leaning. Having said that he is a bright individual that poses good questions and plausible answers to some of our existential and religious questions. I believe he is a believer. On the other hand, he needs to be seen as a legitimate intelligent scientist.

... ..Reply.. Forum 217 Chad 2022-06-03 20:39:44

The Ukrainian spirit is still high despite the fact that 25% of their country is occupied. National pride goes a long way even if in the long run their efforts are futile. They will always be remembered as great examples of national pride and sacrifice. I'm sure we will always have a warm spot in our hearts no matter how badly they may be defeated. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 216 Gary 2022-06-03 17:55:07

Listening to Jordan Peterson now., I find him interesting. I thought at one point he said "us believers"  He and his wife went through some tough health issues a few years ago, at that point he seemed to talk about Christianity more than before.It almost goes over my head.

... ..Reply.. Forum 215 Chad 2022-06-03 12:31:44

Well, there you are. I thought we had lost you.  I came across this video of Jordan Peterson giving his take on the Bible. I do have problems with Peterson. Mostly because either he doesn't realize his own bias or if he does he doesn't declare it. That affects his conclusions. Having said that he does make some interesting observations. They are worthwhile pondering. He talks about the Bible and its place in society and possibly how it grounds Western society. Gary, I'm sure you would find this interesting. 


I will read your email regarding: Andy. Hopefully, it is good news.   

... ..Reply.. Forum 214 Gary 2022-06-03 10:38:04

RE:3195 Haven't started yet. (Going to send out an email shortly about Andy?  This Sunday church goes back to full communion and goes maskless, of course those who wish can still wear them.

... ..Reply.. Forum 213 Chad 2022-06-03 10:29:35

The Anglican Church as a whole could learn a new tradition

The aboriginal church could be the church of the future. We need to break the ties that bind us to colonialism and exploitive empires. That history belongs in books and educational material. It has no place in a sanctuary of spiritual expression and worship.

... ..Reply.. Forum 212 Chad 2022-06-01 14:28:29

Yeah, no pressure though, it is a daunting task. I have read it in chronological order, I do not recommend this approach. Too much consecutive ancient Hebrew writing becomes tiresome and non-inspiring. It is definitely aimed at a very different homogeneous audience. That's my opinion. I must add that it has been decades since I tried such a task. I might see it differently now. Good Luck. I might also suggest that you give yourself the freedom of prolonged breaks to keep yourself fresh. Fighting through the writing just to meet artificial benchmarks will cause your brain to rebel and wander.



... ..Reply.. Forum 211 Lou 2022-06-01 08:24:17

Gary, how's your Bible reading project coming?

... ..Reply.. Forum 210 Chad 2022-06-01 00:11:44

It is a beautiful song.

... ..Reply.. Forum 209 Chad 2022-05-27 11:43:00

I made a mistake. I deleted the posts but didn't copy them so I couldn't re-post them. I apologize. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 208 Lou 2022-05-27 10:34:38

What happened to quote 2320 I was planning to respond to it.

... ..Reply.. Forum 207 Lou 2022-05-26 19:10:06

Aren't Quotes 2318 and 2319 about truth? So shouldn't it be in the panel where truth is being discussed? This is like trying to have a conversation in two different rooms at the same time.

I read quote 2320 as being about a different subject, am I correct?

... ..Reply.. Forum 206 Chad 2022-05-26 00:21:16

What I found funny about the quote is when he says, that's not how God sees things. Is he telling us he knows how God sees things, how would he know? How ridiculous.  

... ..Reply.. Forum 205 Gary 2022-05-25 20:35:58

Or is it Marcus J. or J. Borg?

... ..Reply.. Forum 204 Gary 2022-05-25 20:34:50

Marcus and Borg quote Chad. Thought you had moved on from them. Give me some quotes I can sink my teeth into.

... ..Reply.. Forum 203 Chad 2022-05-24 16:15:27

I'm curious that's all. There are many reasons to read the Bible. I like your approach.

... ..Reply.. Forum 202 Chad 2022-05-24 16:12:22

Gary, you said you want to read through the Bible one more time before you croak. Can I ask what would be your purpose in doing this? I am not being critical just curious. I would also like to know what way you choose to do this.



... ..Reply.. Forum 201 Chad 2022-05-24 16:11:46

Let's see how I feel about it when I get through the book.


... ..Reply.. Forum 200 Gary 2022-05-24 11:38:50

RE: 3186 Everytime I open the Bible I see something I didn't notice before. It keeps me closer to God in my walk.  You don't get that with any other book. It's like an inaudible prompting from the Holy Spirit.

  (Short answer, it keeps me grounded and focused.) Why do I have to explain??

... ..Reply.. Forum 199 Chad 2022-05-24 11:30:56

Be devoted to one another in love. Honor one another above yourselves.

Paul from Romans.

I think this is good advice that comes from a Roman Jew of the Pharisee sect.

I wonder did the Christian God exist before Christ came along?

... ..Reply.. Forum 198 Chad 2022-05-24 09:27:43

Gary, you said you want to read through the Bible one more time before you croak. Can I ask what would be your purpose in doing this? I am not being critical just curious. I would also like to know what way you choose to do this.



... ..Reply.. Forum 197 Lou 2022-05-24 08:06:48

I agree with what you are saying except for the metaphor label.

"This is at least part of what I am looking for in the Perennial Philosophy. You do mean in The Perennial Philosophy by Aldous Huxley, I hope.

... ..Reply.. Forum 196 Lou 2022-05-24 07:37:24

Gary, Bible Gateway, there's a link to it on the front page, offers many Bible reading plans.
Since there is only one God you must mean the Christian view of God. 

Chad, There's no need to apologize, reading carefully before responding would be a good idea. We are all guilty of that especially when we read scripture.

... ..Reply.. Forum 195 Chad 2022-05-23 16:20:52

I thought you might clarify what I said Lou. I just wanted to give a simple response to Gary's simple questions. They were not meant to be definitive. I apologize for getting your explanation wrong, Lou. My idea was to get the conversation back on track. It seems I didn't do a very good job of it.  I didn't know Gary was taking his quote from Merton I wouldn't have guessed it if he hadn't told us.

Merton was interested in how others considered the same issues he was concerned with. He consulted thousands of sources he wrote and received a lot of letters. His interest was deeper than our banter. He was on a trip to the Orient for additional research when he died. I wonder did he get any closer to his goal? He was an outstanding Christian for sure. One can only assume that his correspondence and research strengthened his faith. Maybe that's as good as it gets. Thanks for sharing Gary.

... ..Reply.. Forum 194 Gary 2022-05-23 16:14:04

As long as we are talking about a Christian God, I'm in.  By Merton quoting Krishna he may be streching my limits. I know you want a detailed discussion but I can only jump in and out when I see something that interests me. I want to read the Bible through once more before I croak, just thinking about the best way to go about it. I have a couple of links, one suggested by Peter where the daily reading is read to me as I follow along with the transscrpit. Another link for reading through the Bible is put out there by Nicky Gumbel.  Rambling, so I will go watch General Hospital. Sonny is getting another divorce.

... ..Reply.. Forum 193 Chad 2022-05-23 12:09:23

I agree. There is a common underlying essence that the religious thinkers and mystics sensed. They expressed that essence, as they were able to, in the language that their various societies and cultures would understand. I agree. The Bible through Christ alludes to a deep and profound essence. Christ used Father and Heaven as metaphors to give ordinary humans something to grasp and identify with. Although the Gospels suggest and attempt to express a much deeper meaning, we largely restrict ourselves to the narrative level. 

This has been obvious to me for some time now. The language of the Bible has been taken at a very basic pedestrian level. This explains things simply and tells us basically what we are like. We tend to ignore or misinterpret the ideas that suggest what we should be like. This common understanding has led us to wars, conflict, and inequality in all sorts of ways. On the other hand, I believe Scripture and other sacred texts are attempting to reveal a much deeper essence and a better way to exist. 

This is at least part of what I am looking for in the Perennial Philosophy.

... ..Reply.. Forum 192 Lou 2022-05-23 09:28:23

The main message of the book The Perennial Philosophy by Aldous Huxley is that in all religions there are thinkers and mystics who have come to the same realization with different ways of describing it depending on their cultures. We need to see it in the Bible instead of being stuck at the narrative level. Parables, sermons, and events are to be read as means of describing reality, not as historical facts.

Do you agree with that and do you listen with that in mind?

... ..Reply.. Forum 191 Lou 2022-05-23 09:16:59

Gary Quote 3167

Krishna says in the Bhagavad Gita: "By devotion in work He knows me, knows what in truth I am and who I am. then, having known me in truth, He enters into me."  Something for me to ponder, what is work, who is He, what truth and who's entering?  Chad has probably already figured out I am still reading Merton.

Gary, I assume that is something that Merton quoted. What did he say about it that made you want to do some pondering? You did ask questions and I did answer so are those answers satisfactory? Do they change what you understood from the quote in any way?
You don't have to believe what is said but only that is what is being said.

... ..Reply.. Forum 190 Lou 2022-05-22 19:46:15

Gary Quote 3167

Krishna says in the Bhagavad Gita: "By devotion in work He knows me, knows what in truth I am and who I am. then, having known me in truth, He enters into me."  Something for me to ponder, what is work, who is He, what truth and who's entering?  Chad has probably already figured out I am still reading Merton.

The problem with so much space/posts between the post and the response to it shows up in Chad's post where he states that "Who is he? Lou, says, God". I did not, what I said is that 'he' refers to each individual and that every time Krishna says 'me' he is speaking as God. 
The point is that 'devotion in work' has Paul vs. James overtones while  "loving devotion to Me(God)" doesn't

Gary, are those answers satisfactory? Do they change what you understood from the quote in any way? You don't have to believe what is said but only that is what is being said.


... ..Reply.. Forum 189 Chad 2022-05-22 14:13:13

With the risk of going off into my own world, I'm sure I see a definite connection between the Merton Quote that quotes Easter philosophy and, Saint Francis de Sales' quote.  in a nutshell, the more we learn to focus on God in our Earthly activity the closer to God we become. Love is the key ingredient. Any thoughts?

... ..Reply.. Forum 188 Chad 2022-05-22 13:31:42

Gary, the forum is for the discussion of ideas and different points of perspective. Many quotes go by without comment. I'm paying attention to what you are writing and quoting. You have joined in on a more regular basis. I would like to keep it that way. We all think differently and therefore we perceive things differently. On the other hand, we have many things in common. Let's talk like friends even though this medium can create another layer of confusion and distraction that you wouldn't necessarily get with face-to-face meetings. The medium is instantaneous the way we are using it isn't.

I like that you have brought in Merton and Saint Francis de Sales as you can see by my previous posts they helped me go off on a tangent. I couldn't link them very well with this conversation, as Lou has pointed out. I have to work out my ideas better before I bring them in again. I apologize for my interruption. It was well-intended but poorly executed and not that coherent or relevant to the topic.

... ..Reply.. Forum 187 Lou 2022-05-22 09:05:41

Gary, You read what I wrote the way you read the Bible: to make it say what you want it to say not what it says. Christian writers do the same they read with their preconceived notions and pick the word they need to make it say what they want it to say. Mentioning what I thought of Cristian writers was an unnecessary distraction.

In Quote 3167 you asked questions, what do you think of the answers?

... ..Reply.. Forum 186 Gary 2022-05-21 20:26:15

Lou said in 3169, "I would ignore quotes from Indian Scriptures by Christian writers."  I think he meant to say he would ignore Christian writers.  Chad the quote in 3170, Gail wrote in my birthday card today, you guys are big on love and it was about love so I just shared.  Every quote doesn't have to be a conversation starter.  Some times I just read them and file them away for a rainy day.

... ..Reply.. Forum 185 Chad 2022-05-21 16:41:22

I agree although the Eastern philosophies are intriguing they are still too foreign to be of much use. That is not to say that they don't deserve attention. I must get back to the Perennial Philosophy from Huxley's perspective. I am reading it online and listening to his voice from an online video. When I got a bit tangled I returned to the Introduction and started taking notes. More will come when I get some time. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 184 Chad 2022-05-21 16:07:53

Gary, I like your quote from Saint Francis de Sales.  It makes so much sense. It works in a practical sense for all serious endeavors. The progression toward spiritual perfection is by actively loving and then loving even better.

... ..Reply.. Forum 183 Chad 2022-05-21 15:54:28

Questions Gary asked? What is work? Who is he? What Truth? Who Is entering?

What is work?  Lou, says it is everything we do.

Who is he? Lou, says, God

What truth? Lou, says Knowing who God is.

Who is entering? My thoughts, entering is awareness of the oneness with God. God is always present only by actively engaging in work with devotion to God are we aware of this.

Simple answers to your questions Gary from our perspectives.

The other ideas and posts stem from this.

... ..Reply.. Forum 182 Lou 2022-05-21 15:05:25

Are we having a conversation here? If so I lost the thread.

... ..Reply.. Forum 181 Chad 2022-05-21 14:43:31

I would say that an honest questions to find the other's perspective or to begin an open dialogue are the best for progessing an idea and better understanding That might mean that leads to better more informed questions. This idea requires total openness and the williness of an eager apprentice. The grounding to keep things on track would be love. I be wary of those that want to steer, control, or monoplize the conversation. The should however ba able to contribute their thoughts.

Having said that, what was Merton trying to communicate, from his Christian Monk's perspective? What was his purpose in quoting ancient Indian spiritual philosophy (wisdom)? Answering these 2 questions may get us closer to what Gary is looking for.

... ..Reply.. Forum 180 Chad 2022-05-21 12:51:58

I just watched a video from the World Science Festival. It was an interview with host Brian Green a famous physicist/ mathematician and Nobel Laureate for physics Frank Wilczek. The technical stuff I found interesting. However the philosophical discussions I found most inspiring.

One of the philosophical ideas regarding advancing awareness is the need for collaboration and the serious consideration from many points of view. We can see from our discussions on this topic that we can increase our own perspective. In other words, more will be revealed as we engage with a topic, as an advancing apprentice. Expanded further the more we include the perspectives of others that have or are considering the same areas of interest. Seeking the truth about concepts can be explored and expressed in many ways. Understanding the truth about it may take more than words that we have and understand. What I think we want is to be as close to the truth of it as we can be. We should listen to and discuss what others know and freely reveal about it. The process can be one rendering and or expanding at the same time. The process can be rewarding and enjoyable. I believe universal truths are like that. I also believe that they bleed into other areas not obviously attached to a current consideration.

I realize what I have written is of a general nature and somewhat spontaneous. I wanted to get it out in the rough form. Feel free to edit it or critique it in any way. 

I think that is what Merton was trying to do at least in part.

I have included the video. Not for science but for philosophy.


... ..Reply.. Forum 179 Gary 2022-05-21 11:36:41

"There are many who want me to tell them of secret ways of becoming perfect and I can only tell them that the sole secret is a hearty love of God, and the only way of attaining that love is by loving.  You learn to speak by speaking, to study by studying, to run by running, to work by working, and just so you learn to love God and man by loving.  Begin as a mere apprentice and the very power of love will lead you on to become a master of the art.   Saint Francis de Sales

... ..Reply.. Forum 178 Lou 2022-05-21 09:03:00

Gary quoting from the Bhagavad Gita! Now I've seen everything. 

The way that quote was translated is misleading and leads to misinterpretation. 
BG 18.55: Only by loving devotion to Me(God) does one( He, you, me, anyone) come to know who I am in Truth. Then, having come to know Me(God), My devotee enters into full consciousness of Me(God). 

What Krishna is saying here is that everything one does should be to the glory of God and not for personal gratification, not for selfish reasons but for the service of others. The Astavakra Gita reaffirms the same idea. Jesus told us the same thing in parables and through examples.

Work is everything that we do even eating. Wouldn't it be a wonderful world if everyone were to serve/love God and neighbors (everybody and everything ) instead of one's own selfish desires!

I would ignore quotes from Indian Scriptures by Christian writers.


... ..Reply.. Forum 177 Chad 2022-05-20 16:59:25

The Astavakra Gita says: "Do not let the fruit of action be your motive and do not be attached to nonaction." Krishna says in the Bhagavad Gita, "By devotion in work He knows me, knows what in truth I am and who I am. Then having known me in truth, He enters into me."

Above, I added to your quote to give a little more context.

The Thomas Merton Centre website suggests (In other words, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing. Work to please God alone.) 

In my words; Let our work be a devotion to God, Take no credit or benefit for ourselves. God will see our truth and conviction. He will be with us. In that way, we will truly be doing God's will. 

Lou, could you take a wack at this?  

... ..Reply.. Forum 176 Gary 2022-05-20 12:04:44

Krishna says in the Bhagavad Gita: "By devotion in work He knows me, knows what in truth I am and who I am. then, having known me in truth, He enters into me."  Something for me to ponder, what is work, who is He, what truth and who's entering?  Chad has probably already figured out I am still reading Merton.

... ..Reply.. Forum 175 Lou 2022-05-20 10:05:46

This would work a lot better if we were to respond to the latest post and only to the latest post. In the case of your Quote 2606, your Re 2305 deserves a thread of its own, on the top left panel. I suggest we leave that for a later date.

 We should always use "Aldous Huxley's The Perennial Philosophy" when we are referring to the book and really that is all we are qualified to talk about so far because "The Eastern philosophies are a bit tricky.". 

Now, following my recommendation: In this last post do you mean the Perennial Philosophy or the book Aldous Huxley's The Perennial Philosophy? Letting me know where you are at in listening to Aldous Huxley's The Perennial Philosophy would be very helpful in understanding what you are saying. He is saying very interesting things so are the people he quotes. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 174 Chad 2022-05-19 20:55:59

To tell you the truth. I'm not there yet as far as Perennial Philosophy is concerned I am still going over the video and text So when I make a comment about Perennial Philosophy I'll be sure to tell you that upfront. At present, I'm trying to put things together. It is difficult to suspend my ideas that are similar and overlap with Huxley's Ideas on the subject. The Eastern philosophies are a bit tricky. Some of the terms I haven't come across before. Others I have heard but don't really understand in any workable sense.

Re 2305 Tell me how you see John's statement. How does it differ from how I see it?

... ..Reply.. Forum 173 Lou 2022-05-19 19:05:18

That is a valid way of looking at it but not the way I look at it.

"There was some intangible that they were trying to bring into the light." sounds very good. And words were inadequate.

I suggest you forget the Perennial Philosophy it's not your way of looking at things but let's keep this thread going exploring things your way. 


... ..Reply.. Forum 172 Chad 2022-05-19 13:10:25

"In the beginning", I'm sure refers to John's understanding of the beginning based on the Hebrew understanding in Genesis as he uses the same wording. In other words, the world was created in 6 days. It is interesting that language is equated with the holies of holies also equal to Christ and also equal to Love. As Genesis created the Hebrew world. John has created the Christian world. There is no better starting point to anchor both. There was a backdrop known to us that didn't exist to them. At any rate, It wasn't necessary for their purpose. The genius of these creation myths is that they include only what is necessary to speak the truth for their time and for their people. They are convenient metaphorical beginnings. Not to say that they were written just to tell a story. There was some intangible that they were trying to bring into the light. All they had were words to express this.  

... ..Reply.. Forum 171 Chad 2022-05-19 11:39:59

You know I am much happier with questions than answers. Our best questions give us something to consider and explain at a certain level of understanding which leads to more questions at that level and I suppose that might speak to your idea of analysis. On the other hand, it is an open-ended ongoing analysis. I'm wary of certainty and final absolute answers. They spoil the fun of chasing the cat's tail. They certainly destroy inquiry debate and the progess of study and learning. I'm interested in the progression of ideas. Learning progresses in some areas faster than others. What I'm finding is that my ignorance is what drives me. To be clear I am not talking about perennial philosophy here. I'm trying to explain how I look at things in general. People want to take shortcuts so that they can stand and feel secure on some certain ground. I appreciate the need to be grounded in certain areas of one's life. We need some limitations, restraints, and constants even if they are artificially created. Was it Carl Sagon that said we should question everything? No one wants to be duped. In academic learning, I need to restrict that to questioning the things I find worth pursuing.  I want to be open to all possibilities until they are not probable in my estimation. I expect to be wrong and I expect that I will rethink what I have just written because it is brief and not conclusive.

... ..Reply.. Forum 170 Lou 2022-05-19 10:52:03

John 1:1, In the beginning, was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. That verse has the same meaning. Happier intellectually is a good start. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 169 Chad 2022-05-19 08:45:06

I would be happier with the idea and wording that Divine Truth is one, timeless, and universal. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 168 Lou 2022-05-19 08:40:29

Thank you. 
I agree with you. It has to be a belief until by introspection and meditation it becomes as beyond question as our own existence. That is the core of the Perennial Philosophy and all the scriptures and all the religions are attempts to describe how we fit in there from the point of view of the culture we were born in. 

Aldous Huxley's The Perennial Philosophy says that a few mystics in all religions have discovered that. The Samadhi movies are guides toward that realization. The approach you take depends on what you are after analysis and critique of scripture or ethics and enlightenment. Your posts give me the impression that analysis is what you're after.

... ..Reply.. Forum 167 Chad 2022-05-19 00:14:05

I don't think it is dogma. It could be a belief, though.

... ..Reply.. Forum 166 Lou 2022-05-18 18:03:07

It is very important for our understanding of each other's views to clarify whether you consider a statement like '"God is the only reality." as dogma. A definite yes/no answer is needed. Please.

... ..Reply.. Forum 165 Chad 2022-05-18 16:20:01

I'm newer to this than you are. I have parallel views regarding creation, religion, philosophy, and the energies that flow from and through. I must be very clear about what track I'm taking and the context otherwise I'll have trouble being understood. Looking back, I see I haven't been clear. I'll try to do better.

... ..Reply.. Forum 164 Lou 2022-05-18 09:14:31

I cannot see any benefit to that approach. Assuming scripture is read for inspiration one has to leave preconceived ideas behind and read with an open mind asking childlike( for lack of a better word ) questions, not confrontational questions - which is the type of question you usually go for. 
It is very important for our understanding of each other's views to clarify whether you consider a statement like '"God is the only reality." as dogma. A definite yes/no answer is needed. 

"Meditation seems a constant across the perennial philosophy. The words dissolve into sounds then silence and breath. Leaving only the original energy of the imagination and emotion of the creator. We are aware of the writer's duty and sincere devotion. The words are a gift to others inspired and imperfectly human." that statement is what started this.

... ..Reply.. Forum 163 Chad 2022-05-17 22:17:47

You are right I was differentiating between Shruti and Smriti as I understood the terms.


... ..Reply.. Forum 162 Lou 2022-05-17 19:01:23

I don't know where you are heading with this topic.
Love/agape/charity(as the book translates agape) is the moving force so I agree with your second sentence.
I don't understand what your first sentence means. 

The Perennial Philosophy( not the book) is a deep-rooted knowledge the same as the knowledge of our own existence, of our own consciousness.
It is not a belief, it is not faith, it is not dogma( if you think it is dogma then seriously you should forget it and move on to something else ). Gary doesn't need it, it probably would be bad for him. 

The book shows that the thinkers of all religions agree on the nature of reality.


... ..Reply.. Forum 161 Chad 2022-05-17 18:50:02

We need to decide what principles are truly universal and timeless and which are only applicable for a particular time and place.

... ..Reply.. Forum 160 Chad 2022-05-17 16:39:20

Where the arguments being is in those areas that are not affirming or based on love. That affirmation and love have been present since the beginning. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 159 Lou 2022-05-17 16:19:36

I don't know what billions of years have to do with anything. Perennial Philosophy is a book about how all religions, for a very few, agree about reality which the Perennial Philosophy attempts to describe.

Maybe, the Samadhi series of films offered under Awaken The World listened to meditatively would benefit you.

That website has a lot to offer. “Blessed are the poor in spirit,
    for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." is the way to approach these things: leave everything you know at the door as you enter and be prepared to question with an open mind until you really grok.

... ..Reply.. Forum 158 Lou 2022-05-17 15:58:35

Chad, the idea is that if you want to quote something you do it on the oldest panel. We should not spread a topic over all three panels as it is being done now.

... ..Reply.. Forum 157 Chad 2022-05-17 13:38:26

I guess you are right. We had to wait 14 billion years for it to be uttered. I like Perennial Philosophy but I am still working through it. I doubt what I said is the opposite of Perennial Philosophy. It was not meant as a criticism or to be in opposition. It was meant to add a backdrop.

... ..Reply.. Forum 156 Lou 2022-05-17 11:57:14

I think you have the cart before the horse and the opposite of what the Perennial Philosophy says.

... ..Reply.. Forum 155 Chad 2022-05-17 00:29:59

... ..Reply.. Forum 154 Chad 2022-05-16 18:48:33

The source of our spirituality goes way beyond our first words. Creation began about 14 billion years ago. Word to describe it came to be 14 billion years later. Man's explanation is a human perspective which is a self-centred and limited point of view. Forget about the Universe, we should just concentrate on repairing and creating a better world for all. Why can't we do that?

... ..Reply.. Forum 153 Lou 2022-05-16 14:16:40

I don't know what to do with your latest post. It's all over the place. Some I get and can agree with. Almost every sentence deserves to be a paragraph. One sentence makes no sense at all. 

I would be interested to deal with them separately or at least understand how they fit together.

... ..Reply.. Forum 152 Chad 2022-05-16 13:40:36

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood. (Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights)

Wouldn’t it be a completely different world if only the nations of the world could remember the human ideals they agreed to in 1948? The Universal Declaration of Human Rights was a historic memorandum agreed by the General Assembly of the United Nations following the devastating events of the Second World War, which had killed over 75 million human beings. 

If only today’s leaders and governments could revive that spirit of humanity, with a commitment to uphold and support the rights that were laid down 73 years ago, the Peace Train would truly have arrived. I may be naive, but I’d prefer to stay that way than lose that precious light of hope which lives within me.

Yusuf  AKA Cat Stevens

... ..Reply.. Forum 151 Chad 2022-05-15 14:35:46

The source of our spirituality goes way beyond our first words. Way beyond the Sun and solar system. Way beyond the first star. Language to explain it wasn't invented until 13,000,000,000 years later. Religion is for men to debate and fight about. Humans are a minor occurrence. Our perspective and perception are very self-centered and limited.  

... ..Reply.. Forum 150 Chad 2022-05-14 14:54:59

The body and mind turn to ash except for the genes and DNA that are contained in our offspring. The soul has always existed hence, its permanency, indestructibility, and connectedness to the universe.

... ..Reply.. Forum 149 Chad 2022-05-14 14:25:48

I'm not sure, what you said Lou sounds right. I wonder if it is more basic than that. Could it just be a sensed connection? I have this vision of two entities separated by a glazed window It is there to protect our free will and imagination. We must be allowed to fail and sin. Our job is to clean the window as best we can so we can free ourselves from ego and desire. Our guide is the true prophet. Who gave us the example that the death of our ego is not important. Our souls carry on without us.

... ..Reply.. Forum 148 Lou 2022-05-14 12:08:37

"We are not our body-mind and our purpose in life is to shed that mistaken identity and realize that our soul is what we really are(that is the message from the Perennial Philoso[hy). Our souls do not carry on without us they are us dropping our carriage( body-mind 0 to before returning home." vs " Our souls carry on without us."  

What you wrote in that post sounds pretty good, but needs clarification, until the last sentence which runs contrary to what comes before. Let's develop the idea.

... ..Reply.. Forum 147 Chad 2022-05-13 23:51:33

I consider them universal truths conveyed within sacred writing. These statements have a practical and spiritual dimension. They are timeless. They are as valid today as they were in more ancient times.

... ..Reply.. Forum 146 Lou 2022-05-13 19:13:31

We are not our body-mind and our purpose in life is to shed that mistaken identity and realize that our soul is what we really are(that is the message from the Perennial Philoso[hy). Our souls do not carry on without us they are us dropping our carriage( body-mind 0 to before returning home.

What I meant by "That spiritual mode is meant to apply to the whole of our life: not to tell us how nature works but to guide us in how to approach it. " is that our body-mind is supposed to apply/live the Sermon on the Mount and the Buddhist Noble Eightfold Path.

BTW a question that keeps popping into my mind is dying to be asked so here we go: I think that you consider Jesus' miracles and even the Resurrection to be dogma but do you also consider the Sermon on the Mount, the Buddhist Noble Eightfold Path, and the Ten Commandments to also be dogmas?

... ..Reply.. Forum 145 Chad 2022-05-13 18:30:21

There can be no peace without justice. God’s peace cannot be separated from God’s righteousness, justice and steadfast love. Peacemaking and the establishment of conditions for just relationships are indispensable to our common faith. Working for peace is about establishing justice among persons and societies and in all areas of our public life… Creating a Just Peace involves freeing human beings from fear and want, and overcoming enmity, discrimination, and oppression. It requires establishing conditions for just relationships that respect the experience of the most vulnerable and value the integrity of creation.

Excerpts from Principles of Peace, The Canadian Council of Churches (May 2018)

... ..Reply.. Forum 144 Chad 2022-05-13 17:49:09

I'm not sure, what you said Lou sounds right. I wonder if it is more basic than that. Could it just be a sensed connection? I have this vision of two entities separated by a glazed window It is there to protect our free will and imagination. We must be allowed to fail and sin. Our job is to clean the window as best we can so we can free ourselves from ego and desire. Our guide is the true prophet. Who gave us the example that the death of our ego is not important. Our souls carry on without us.

... ..Reply.. Forum 143 Lou 2022-05-13 08:26:43

That spiritual mode is meant to apply to the whole of our life: not to tell us how nature works but to guide us in how to approach it. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 142 Chad 2022-05-12 23:35:50

Some Jews converted to Christianity. I am not surprised that Jews didn't jump on the Christian bandwagon. I know some Christians that are very resistant to change. It would be impossible for them to switch faiths. I'm sure the Jews would have had the same mindset. Actually, they still do. That's OK. The Jews I know are good people of faith doing good things.

... ..Reply.. Forum 141 Gary 2022-05-12 14:40:09

Chad your quote by Billy reminds me of the book I am reading, This Year in Jerusalem by Mordecai Richler.  Jewish people also would not open the door to Jesus as the Messiah.

(haven't heard from Lou yet so maybe I have it in the right spot) 

... ..Reply.. Forum 140 Chad 2022-05-12 13:34:34

... ..Reply.. Forum 139 Chad 2022-05-12 13:29:45

Yeah, I liked it better without the context. I guess it shows things that are taken out of context can shift the intent.

... ..Reply.. Forum 138 Chad 2022-05-12 12:54:51

That is why I included the Lectio Divina link. I knew you meant it in a spiritual mode. I suppose it doesn't matter what interpretation or understanding we have of a passage. That understanding will vary on an individual basis. Being in the spirit is what is important. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 137 Gary 2022-05-12 12:12:27

The quote on the calender didn't say it was from Dorian Gray, that fictional quote changes things, although I could see Oacar saying that.

... ..Reply.. Forum 136 Chad 2022-05-12 11:44:01

Gary your quote is thought-provoking. I think it is better stated out of context and left open for alternative interpretations. 

What comes to mind is a person like Trump who seems to become more popular with the Christian Right the more his transgressions and sins are revealed. I have other thoughts but I would really like to see your take on it, especially after your comment,  Something to be proud of, eh??

Here is the passage that the quote is taken from. http://www.authorama.com/the-picture-of-dorian-gray-4.html


... ..Reply.. Forum 135 Gary 2022-05-12 10:42:43

"You will always be fond of me.  I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."   --Oscar Wilde--   Sometning to be proud of, eh??

... ..Reply.. Forum 134 Lou 2022-05-12 09:04:38

That is indeed what I have been saying.

Way back when I was asking for comments on the daily Gospel reading I was hoping to get that sort of response instead of historical or literary analysis.
The three steps I mentioned even apply to any kind of study. If the student had used it throughout the course no cramming would be needed before the exam.
In the spiritual realm, it means accepting Christ more than just intellectually or emotionally but with our whole being.


... ..Reply.. Forum 133 Lou 2022-05-12 08:30:03

... ..Reply.. Forum 132 Chad 2022-05-11 18:39:12

Meditation seems a constant across the perennial philosophy. The words dissolve into sounds then silence and breath. Leaving only the original energy of the imagination and emotion of the creator. We are aware of the writer's duty and sincere devotion. The words are a gift to others inspired and imperfectly human.

... ..Reply.. Forum 131 Lou 2022-05-11 09:19:25
The human race has considered itself superior to and not part of the animal kingdom and to be entitled to overpopulate, subdue, and abuse the planet for much too long. It is high time that we get it in our thick skulls that we are an integral part of nature and that nature would be better off without us. Visit Chernobyl for proof.


... ..Reply.. Forum 130 Lou 2022-05-11 08:57:49

I mentioned something like that before, for example: 

  • Read scripture then
  • Question with an open mind to make sure to understand correctly
  • Internalize what was learned

I didn't put it quite that way then but the same thing was meant.


... ..Reply.. Forum 129 Chad 2022-05-11 08:45:05

Understanding is not conceptual, and therefore cannot be passed on. It is an immediate experience, and immediate experience can only be talked about (very inadequately), never shared. Nobody can actually feel another’s pain or grief, another’s love or joy or hunger. And similarly, nobody can experience another’s understanding of a given event or situation… We must always remember that knowledge of understanding is not the same thing as understanding, which is the raw material of that knowledge. It is as different from understanding as the doctor’s prescription for penicillin is different from penicillin.

Understanding is not inherited, nor can it be laboriously acquired. It is something which, when circumstances are favorable, comes to us, so to say, of its own accord. All of us are knowers, all the time; it is only occasionally and in spite of ourselves that we understand the mystery of a given reality.

Aldous Huxley

Roger Penrose argues that understanding is not computational. He says there can't be an algorithm designed that could duplicate human understanding of concepts. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 128 Chad 2022-05-09 23:11:42

What went wrong?

This was total arrogance, disrespect, and abuse of our children. This is genocide against children sanctioned by the church. Archbishop Welby will have to accept the responsibility for the church and the Crown. Such shameful sinful behavior can never be justified. We must never let anything like this happen again. His apology is certain. Let's hope it makes a difference in some way.

... ..Reply.. Forum 127 Chad 2022-05-08 13:29:01

I am enough of the artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.' -Albert Einstein

I think the last 2 quotes can be put together. With imagination and love, we can envision an inclusive and cohesive world. Once we see it in our mind's eye we can make it happen. As Gandhi said, our greatest gift is the ability to remake ourselves.

... ..Reply.. Forum 126 Lou 2022-05-07 07:47:57

... ..Reply.. Forum 125 Lou 2022-05-03 17:48:16

Chad, I think that listening to the Perennial Philosophy will make things clear for you. It doesn't advocate any religions but simply points out how all scriptures point to who we are and what is our purpose in life. They all fall short but they have kernels of truth.

Listen to it carefully and slowly maybe half an hour at a time. Discuss it here if you wish; I am willing to reread it so we could make it a joint project. It is not a religion, it's a philosophy that applies to all religions. I would suggest that Gary should stay away from it except for the introduction.

... ..Reply.. Forum 124 Chad 2022-05-03 12:03:13

Lou, I agree with you, Lou. Although I question your belief in salvation not because it is wrong in any sense. I don't understand the concept or why it is required. I don't refuse to be saved. I don't know what I'm being saved from. Christ taught us how we should live and treat one another. Salvation may be part of that, but that part is out of my control. The Gospels contain quite a bit of the OT. That is what the Gospel writers were familiar with. The OT formed their sensibilities and beliefs. To them, Jesus was the final prophet, the ointed one, the Messiah. John's gospel was written to prove Jesus was the Messiah. Jesus's followers are following a Jew. I find it wonderful that Christianity is full of paradoxes and confusing rhetoric and metaphors. Christ wanted us to think for ourselves as he did. The damning rhetoric comes into the NT from the OT. Christ wanted us to see through the rhetoric and dogma to the underlying truth. God is love.

... ..Reply.. Forum 123 Chad 2022-05-03 10:55:43

Yeah, I agree, Gary. Jesus died on the cross but that all happened over 2000 years ago. People, that's all ancient history, move on with your lives. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 122 Lou 2022-05-03 08:18:55

Assuming that the Bible and the Church are supposed to lead us to salvation I wonder what the belief in eternal damnation, the Second Coming, and miracles is supposed to help! Instead, I claim that accepting Jesus as Savior and doing what He told us to do in the Sermon on the Mount especially but also throughout the whole of the Gospels are the only things we need. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 121 Chad 2022-05-03 00:41:01

Quite a few do, Lou. While at the Ministry of Training and Colleges of Ontario, I worked with a fellow. His wife and he belonged to a conservative Lutheran church in South Oshawa. Almost immediately after his granddaughter was born, he had to have her baptized. She would go to Hell if she died before being baptized. I told him that I couldn't believe God would be so simple-minded and mean-spirited. Some people need a mean-spirited God. They are comfortable with the OT vengeful God. They were probably taught from an early age that God was that mean old man in the sky by their parents.

In that regard, we create the God we can believe in.

... ..Reply.. Forum 120 Gary 2022-05-02 17:40:10

https://www.archbishopofcanterbury.org/  Looks interesting since he is in the news, haven't had time to really check it out yet.  First impressions on his visits, more apologies.  People move on with your lives.

... ..Reply.. Forum 119 Lou 2022-05-02 14:35:49
I don't understand how someone who says that God is Love can also say that anyone who doesn't acknowledge Jesus as Lord will get sent to eternal damnation.


... ..Reply.. Forum 118 Chad 2022-05-02 00:12:16

Gary, we know the story. Now that we are redeemed through God's love we are free from sin. What do we make of it? or maybe the better question is, What can we make of it? It is something to contemplate. Thanks for bringing this to our attention.

He does have a lovely Scottish accent and a good delivery.

... ..Reply.. Forum 117 Lou 2022-04-30 18:01:08

That's what I have been telling you. If you don't agree with that let's find out why.

"While we were still sinners" doesn't that imply that if we really totally accept Christ's invitation to surrender ourselves to God we're no longer sinners even though we sin occasionally.

BTW when you post a link you can use " Display Text " to give it a title or make a comment about it. Actually, I wish you would always make an entry into "Display Text" it prevents some display problems.

... ..Reply.. Forum 116 Chad 2022-04-30 12:52:23

In my opinion, very little should be banned or censored. What should never happen is the case Gary brought to our attention. Books being banned for political expediency and or ignorance. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 115 Gary 2022-04-29 20:49:14

Disagree because they are not all inappropriate, example. Dr. Suess, come on.

... ..Reply.. Forum 114 Lou 2022-04-29 15:15:15

Gary is that what you meant and did you post that because you disagree with the banning of inappropriate books or because you agree with it?

... ..Reply.. Forum 113 Chad 2022-04-29 12:23:21

This is how I see it. Even Ray Bradbury could see the trend toward totalitarianism. Fahrenheit 451 is one of his works. Similarly, George Orwell wrote 1984. Aldous Huxley was also on the mark with his novel Brave New World. The Beats were all aware of this. Recently, Margaret Attwood made a killing with her latest novels and TV productions. Their superpower was their ability to discern tendencies and recognize the indicators and mindsets required for totalitarianism to take hold. We have innate tendencies that enable totalitarianism, whether we want to admit it or not. Among them is not being aware of the indicators and consequences of our ignorance. Great writers and artists have warned us. However, we thought they were entertaining us. We failed to appreciate their message and did not take the necessary action.

It is plain and simple denial to deny what can happen to others and not to us. As painful as it may be, we should be aware that we have to fight for our rights and freedoms as well as those of others. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 112 Lou 2022-04-29 07:58:28

Despite the opposition from the American Library Association (ALA), books continue to be banned by school and public libraries across the United States. (In Canada too.)  This is usually the result of complaints from parents, who find particular books not appropriate for their children (e.g., books about sexual orientation such as And Tango Makes Three .

Fahrenheit 451-Ray Bradbury

Sound familiar?  Not Science fiction any longer. Could he see the future? 

Gary, is that what you meant? 

We should quote text using the " black double quote icon " to indicate that we're quoting someone else.

... ..Reply.. Forum 111 Chad 2022-04-29 00:21:17

I'm not questioning your meaning I was a little confused by the wording. I wanted to confirm that I was on the right track. I would say Eves's motivation came from the mind of the man that wrote that passage in Genesis.;-) All historical institutions will not survive much longer. History is no longer a controlled sacred trust. For instance, Ryerson University has severed its ties with the past. Voices that were muffled in the past are now questioning and demanding changes to the status quo. Feminists aren't buying into the Eve guilt trip. ;-) The Monarchy and the Commonwealth are one generation away from total dissolution. We are in the instantaneous electronic universe.

... ..Reply.. Forum 110 Lou 2022-04-28 19:32:07

I meant exactly what I wrote. Every entity from rocks to mammals behaves within the parameters set by its nature. Animals with brains continually test the boundaries mostly in order to survive in a changing world but often from curiosity or even rebellion against authority( which one was Eve's motivation is a good guess!). Why are some Christians content with the status quo while others are not? Are they looking for reform or for laxity?

... ..Reply.. Forum 109 Chad 2022-04-28 10:51:20

I think you are right about evangelism. It is mostly motivated by good intentions. Unfortunately, so is the road to Hell.  

... ..Reply.. Forum 108 Chad 2022-04-28 00:30:31

Everything in the Universe is constantly changing. All factors and forces acting on an object determine the rate of change. Trudeau sr said, after winning an election, that the Universe is unfolding as it should. This clever witticism is profoundly true. Some things may seem static. That is an illusion.

... ..Reply.. Forum 107 Chad 2022-04-27 23:51:31

Lou did you mean to say, everything in nature is designed (not ) to keep the status quo. That would make more sense to me. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 106 Gary 2022-04-27 18:08:55

I get you Chad, evangelism is for Christians who want to reach the lost ;-)

... ..Reply.. Forum 105 Gary 2022-04-27 17:27:04

   Too Big, whoops

... ..Reply.. Forum 104 Chad 2022-04-27 15:59:57

There is nothing wrong with this petition. However, evangelism is not an issue I'm concerned about. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 103 Chad 2022-04-27 15:42:11

... ..Reply.. Forum 102 Lou 2022-04-27 14:44:06

everything in nature is designed to keep the status quo but to constantly test the boundaries otherwise, there would be no evolution either in biology, philosophy, religion, or science. Very few are willing to test the boundaries and any good comes from a very few of those.

... ..Reply.. Forum 100 Gary 2022-04-27 12:56:51

I also like the Holy Ground quote, not too sure about the source.  Second quote, nothing wrong with a pep talk.

... ..Reply.. Forum 101 Gary 2022-04-27 12:56:51

I also like the Holy Ground quote, not too sure about the source.  Second quote, nothing wrong with a pep talk.

... ..Reply.. Forum 99 Chad 2022-04-27 10:04:42

I like the quote about the Holy Ground. I try to see the Sacred Ground in the same light as the First Nations do.

I'm not as impressed with the second. The second quote from Queen Elizabeth is not spontaneous. It is considered and comes from a position of the highest privileges. This is a pep talk for her subjects of the lower class. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 98 Lou 2022-04-27 07:39:37
1- “When life seems hard, the courageous do not lie down and accept defeat; instead, they are all the more determined to struggle for a better future.” ~ Queen Elizabeth II


... ..Reply.. Forum 97 Chad 2022-04-26 14:48:05

We have a natural bias toward keeping the status quo. Our natural preference is a propensity for certainty. We like to define, evaluate, and categorize things quickly and permanently. We don't want to feel stupid or inferior. The idea of following our ignorance and the willingness to step into unknown territory would definitely give some Christians anxiety.  I have to keep this in mind when we are talking to others about personal beliefs and ideas about religion. I don't have the same anxiety level about such things. 

... ..Reply.. Forum 96 Lou 2022-04-24 07:39:29


... ..Reply.. Forum 95 Lou 2022-04-22 09:44:09

It sounds like he is describing the opposite of Christianity and Islam where there's no ignorance because all the answers are to be found in scripture and cannot be questioned instead of accepting that all we have in scripture are tentative answers that are intended to lead to more questions. If we were to focus on how the ancients sages, as well as the modern scientists, arrived at these answers and reinvestigate instead of accepting and propagating tentative, at best, answers.

... ..Reply.. Forum 94 Chad 2022-04-22 08:02:22

The cartoon you posted is very true and to the point. In somewhat the same vein the Ted Talk in the link below suggests we are not thinking clearly as a society about a number of things. All those that don't understand science should watch this. Questions are a good way to increase our ignorance. Have a look. I think you will find it entertaining. 


... ..Reply.. Forum 93 Lou 2022-04-21 19:45:26

... ..Reply.. Forum 92 Chad 2022-04-18 15:38:35

Maria Popova made a similar comment. She didn't mention Christianity. But I think her commentary captures the point of having a wider perspective.

I don’t think it is possible to contribute to the present moment in any meaningful way while being wholly engulfed by it. It is only by stepping out of it, by taking a telescopic perspective, that we can then dip back in and do the work which our time asks of us.



... ..Reply.. Forum 91 Gary 2022-04-18 11:43:30

'The world, in the sense of collective myths and aspirations of contemporary society, is not to be unconditionally accepted or rejected, because whether we like it or not, we are all part of it and there is a sense in which it has to be accepted."   Merton-1958

It goes on but I agree we have no choice but to be drawn in to a wicked society not by choice.  He wrote this in 1958, I wonder what he would think of society today? I would think this quote stands the test of time, especially for Christians. 


... ..Reply.. Forum 90 Gary 2022-04-17 09:06:48


If you listen to the end of this short video you may find the freedom we so desire as we age, for some anyway. g.

... ..Reply.. Forum 89 Chad 2022-04-15 14:16:00

And if we don't find a cure, we will join the fossils of the past.